NEW...
8.7.08
antoinette contacted by U.S. Attorney, Prosecutor of
upcoming Graham Trial (Oct. 6, 2008)
AN INTERVIEW WITH JOHN GRAHAM
Southern Tutchone
March 30, 2004
recorded in the studios of Pacifica Radio KPFK, Los
Angeles
by
antoinette nora claypoole
What about his role as
murderer of Anna Mae? I ask him this. What about a tape
some claim indicts him heavily?? What does the First
Nations man, John Graham, have to say about all this???
I asked him these questions over and over.
In the interview
which follows you can read for yourself his responses.
But what strikes deep is one thing. According to Graham
the U.S. government had plans for HIM as far back as
1988. They threatened to “ruin his life”. Over the past
17 years there were visits by the FBI into Graham’s life
in the Yukon. These visits are documented through the
Royal Canadian Mounted Police, who first escorted the
FBI to Graham’s home back in the late 1980’s. Offering
him immunity to a crime he claims he “did not do,” the
FBI were demanding Graham name names of people who
killed Annie Mae. In exchange the FBI would give him a
“new life.”
So. Where ARE the truths which must be heard in all of
this????
Maybe like the haunting BIA official Robert Ecoffey
supposedly encountered so many years ago, maybe the
voices of the silenced are whispering into the psyches
of even the most unlikely. So. I dream this chance for
people to hear other sides of stories…I imagine in my
long nights of breathing “who, who?” like some kind of
goddamn owl in the low riding nightmare of this…I
imagine not death. Rather. A place where people
wisdomseek in the darkness. Sense for themselves what
the quest for truth really demands.
Still. Disturbed. By the clamberings of lie detector
techno mania and potentially altered “tape recordings,”
I sought to find the Indian/First Nations man being
dragged into the square, a knotted noose awaiting his
neck. In my heart I believe if there is a truth to be
found, all sides must be heard. A place for a fair trial
must be manifest. And many agree that the racist state
of South Dakota may not be the best place for that to
happen. Maybe John Graham deserves to be tried by his
own people.
So. I took a desire for truth. And my wondering of how a
government threatening to kill Anna Mae can be trusted
to find her murderer. I took these things three days
after what would have been Anna Mae’s 59th birthday to
an interview of John Graham. From a small radio studio
in North Hollywood. He in the North Country. Far from
American dreamweaver machines. Still. Both places bound
by a wind. Which pushed me to ask the hard questions.
And insists a listen to some painful remarks which
provoke yet more and more questions. Who murdered Anna
Mae….why and when ….the haunting brutal mystery is far
from over.
RECKONING WINDS OF THE YUKON:
an interview with John Graham
by antoinette nora claypoole
FULL INTERVIEW, March 30-31 2004
Antoinette Claypoole:
Carson Walker, the journalist who wrote the piece
recently published (March 2004)regarding a supposed tape
in which you speak of Annie Mae's murder, Walker
mentions he heard you saying, on a tape "Theda was
driving the car when we left "kills" house" Do you
remember ever saying that???
John Graham: What
are they talking about? When are they talking about?
I've never ever stated that I've been at "kill's" house.
When I travelled with Anna Mae, I never went into the
houses. That was Anna Mae's decision.
AC: How do you think
Anna Mae was murdered??? Did you ever hear of her being
alive after you left her at the Safe House???
JG: I could
speculate - like everyone else but I think people should
really be concentrating on looking at the role of the
FBI and their goons - and the climate of violence and
the killings that were going on at that particular time.
AC: Why do you feel all these people claim it is YOU who
pulled the trigger?
JG: Because they have been duped by
the disinformation campaign ... For every person who
believes I did it, I bet there are a thousand who
believe the FBI did it, but because the FBI and the
State - all they ever have to do is deny and nobody ever
questions them and that's wrong. Now, THAT's withholding
evidence.
antoinette claypoole:
Alright, so what I want to start with, John Graham, is…
tell us a little bit about your life before this
indictment happened. What you have been doing over the
last several years for First Nations people. The kinds
of activism and activities that you were working on
before this indictment was handed to you by the United
States government.
John Graham: I’ve been working with the movement at
different levels for many years, since the early 70s.
But when these indictments all came down, well…. I
haven’t been involved with the movement for a few years;
I’ve been living up in the Yukon raising my children. My
children became my movement. I just dropped out of
everything and concentrated on raising my children. And
that’s what I was doing when this all first came up in
the mid-80s or sometime about there.
The FBI showed up at my home in the Yukon, and asked me
all kinds of questions about Anna Mae and the death.
They were trying to say I was there, or I knew about it,
or I was aware of it. And I had to tell them I wasn’t
aware, I wasn’t around there and I wasn’t involved in
her killing at all. And they wanted me to name
leadership that would have given the order to that
effect, to kill Anna Mae. And they were trying to tell
me they would put me in the witness protection program,
they would change my identity, they would relocate me if
I would go to testify in front of the federal Grand Jury
in South Dakota against the AIM leadership. So I told
them I couldn’t do that because it never happened.
I never, ever received orders of any kind like that from
any of the AIM leadership. And so I wouldn’t do it; I
wouldn’t cooperate with them.
And they left. Then they came back a year or so later
and said, “Well, now there’s a possibility that she
could have been kidnapped. There’s a possibility that
she was raped. And she was murdered.”
And if I didn’t cooperate with them to put this
information on the AIM leadership, then I would be
facing all these charges myself.
AC: Who was speaking to you at that time?
JG: I can’t remember the particular agent’s name, but it
was an agent out of Minnesota. Out of Minneapolis.
AC: So, it was agent who came up from, it was a special
agent?
JG: Yea, of the FBI…He identified himself. And he came
with the RCMP. (Royal Canadian Mounted Police).
AC: Do you remember a timeline on that, John?
JG: Not really. It was….I think it was probably around
the month of February, because it was really cold….OK,
by the records I think it was 1988..
AC: So, at the time of the visit, and we’re going to get
back to the visits again, because that’s a very
important piece of information you’ve shared with us.
But, I also think it’s important for those of us down
here in the States who don’t know you, people overseas
who have rallied to your defense, that we get to know
you a little more. So, you were raising your kids at the
time of this, your children. And that was your biggest
commitment in life, is that right?
JG: At that time, yea. I worked construction; I’m a
construction worker and a pipe layer. I install water,
sewer, and storm systems. I’d been doing that for years.
Prior to that, my involvement with AIM was like, I was
involved with the anti-uranium mining movement, peace
movement, back in the 70’s, 80’s. I was very active
around opposing the uranium mining developments in
Saskatchewan, Canada. And doing a lot of work. I’ve
always done, as you know, whatever I could, wherever I
could for Leonard, and making Leonard’s story known.
AC: Leonard Peltier?
JG: Yes. And I’ve been doing that for years. I’ve toured,
I’ve been across the country a few times, you know, on
behalf of Leonard, and behalf of the anti-uranium mining
efforts. I’ve toured Europe with this. I’ve always
constantly at different times trying to do whatever I
could to expose the crimes that have been committed
against Leonard.
AC: Alright, and so you were active in that, and had some
children, and decided to kind of home-in and become a
father to the kids?
JG: Yes.
AC: So you, while you were raising your children, you
started receiving visits from the FBI and the United
States?
JG: That’s correct. Yes.
AC: Alright. Now, your friend Matt Lien mentioned that he
thought there were at least four visits over the last
fifteen years.
JG; That’s right. That’s right.
AC: ….You mentioned the first visit which was offering
you immunity and a new identity, is that correct?
JG: Yea. The second visit I think, I’m sure it was the
same agent that came up. And again the same deal was
offered, and again I refused.
And that’s when they started talking about well the
possibility she was kidnapped. The possibility she was
raped. And Then they started telling me about this guy
Robert Pictou Branscombe.
They said the he’d been, I guess relieved of, or
resigned from the Army. And that he’d been in Vietnam,
and he was a well-decorated soldier, and that he just
recently, or at the time, realized or come to
enlightenment that he was somehow related to Anna Mae.
And that he was determined to find out how she was
killed, or who killed her. And they warned me then that
he was coming, and he was going to start opening up this
case, you know and he was gong to, they warned me about
this Branscombe guy that was going to come and he wasn’t
going to let it go until he made a case.
So, OK, then the third visit was from a U.S. Marshall,
Ecoffey, Robert Ecoffey.
AC: Now, do you have a sense of time again?
JG: Oh, this was maybe a year or two after the second
visit.
AC: And the second visit was?
JG:Oh, must have been, again, late ‘80’s, ’89, ‘90.
AC: OK, so now this third visit is a couple years later.
JG: Maybe ’94, or something, Ecoffey came up. And he
started telling me that, well he explained who he was.
That he was BIA police at the time working on Pine
Ridge. And that he had worked close, he was more or less
considered a goon at the time. He worked close with the
goons.
So I knew now he was a decorated U.S. Marshall, and he
was saying he was the first Indian to ever carry that
honor, or whatever. And that he had this dream while he
was at the Pine Ridge police station about Anna Mae
crying to him in the cell.
AC: And did you believe him when he told you this story?
JG; Oh, no, no. (laughs) No Not at all. How can this guy
that was a goon, that was a bootlegger, and probably did
a lot to beat and terrorize these people….So how could
this guy have a spiritual revelation all of a sudden?
And he’s having visions?
AC: Right. So he wasn’t very believable to you.
JG; No, not at all. And then once he explained who he was
and his history, then I had nothing to say to him. I
agreed to a meeting with him, though….on that third
visit, well, he come up to me at my workplace.
AC He’d found you.
JG: Ya. At first, I wouldn’t, I had nothing to talk to
him about.
He wanted to meet at the police station, and I said no,
I don’t go there.
He wanted to meet in a hotel room, and I didn’t,
so I said, “OK, I’ll talk to him out in the park where
there’s lots of witnesses. “ So, we did that; we had a
talk. And that’s where he told me they’d see to it that
all these charges got laid on me because, again, I
wouldn’t cooperate.
You know, they want to place me in these places that I
hadn’t been, and put me around in getting orders from
these people that at the time I hardly knew.
AC: And so he was talking to you in the park, you agreed
to talk to him in the park that day. Now, was that the
same day or was that a couple days later?
JG; It was That was that evening.
AC: And did you have family keeping an eye out for you?
Did you tell anybody about this?
JG: Yes. I had relations and family that were around in
the park and were watching everything….I think there
might have been another Marshall with him, or somebody
from the States with him. And then he had a whole, like
an army of RCMP. That were escorting him around.
AC: OK. And you were able to see them?
JG: Oh, ya, they were right there, involved with
interrogating and talking to me.
AC: Did you see any visible recording equipment?
JG: Not visible, but they did put a briefcase down in
front of me, which I figured had a recorder in it. And
the next morning, driving my daughter to school; I used
to drive her to school quite early, and driving by the
park I could see a whole team of RCMP police out there
where I’d been sitting, and I think they were trying to
scrape DNA or whatever off where I was sitting in the
park that night.
AC: And that visit, in the park there with Ecoffey, he
was still trying to get you to admit things, or was he
being more hostile at that point?
JG: Well, he was saying there were all kinds of people
starting to speak out and starting to talk about me,
that I’d been here and I’d been there, you know, and my
name keeps coming up and this is why they’re you know
coming after me.
That’s what he said.
And he said they were going to keep coming and not going
to let it go, and they intend to lay this on me one way
or the other.
AC: And was he speaking about Branscombe at that point,
or was he talking about the Feds, the Federal government
at that point? Was he saying the Federal government was
going to lay this on you?
JG: Yea, It was because he was representing the United
States Marshalls, and he was in that capacity, so I took
it as it was coming from the States.
AC: Right. And did he offer you a deal?
JG: Oh, the same one, you know. And again, I refused it.
AC: Can you tell us one more time that same deal, third
time from Robert Ecoffey, the deal he offered you?
JG: Well, he wanted me to name places that I’d been. He
wanted me to name the AIM leadership that supposedly
gave orders. And they named ALL the AIM leadership. Not
just a couple of them, but they named all of
them….including John Trudell.
AC: Including Dennis Banks??
JG: Yea and Russell Means,
the Bellecourts.
Right. And they wanted me to finger one or all of them,
and I refused. And that’s when they said, “Well. You’re
going to take all these charges yourself.”
All I could say is, “You guys are going to do whatever
you’re going to do. There’s nothing I can do about it.”
So I left it at that.
AC: Alright, now you had a fourth visit. So you left it
at that. They left you alone for how long would you say,
before you had that last visit?
JG: I couldn’t remember exactly. It was a year or two
again.
AC: OK, so fourth visit. What happens then?
JG: More of the same, I guess. They wanted me to talk,
and they came up to my house, and I wouldn’t talk to
them. And I more or less just left them standing at the
door. You know, I got tired of….and they’re consistently
and persistently coming back at me and, you know, and
coming in numbers, so to the neighborhood it looks like
the whole troupe is moving in.
…They’re standing around out in front, you know?
AC: So after that last visit again you said no, there’s
no place they could go, did you ever think they would
actually indict you?
JG: No, no. I didn’t think it would ever get this far.
AC: And why is that, John?
JG: Well because there’s just no truth, no real to it,
you know?
I just couldn’t see how, you know?
AC: There’s a video clip running on the Internet right
now of an interview with you. It’s on
www.danieltv.com/
and on that video clip you mention, and I have the quote
here, that they asked you to identify her murderer, and
they told you either you would cooperate, or they would
ruin your life.
JG: Yea. That’s more or less the words the FBI agent told
me.
AC: And did they say that to you?
JG: He was looking at my house and my family, and he
mentioned to the effect, “Oh, you’ve got a nice home
here, and nice family, you know, good job and stuff, and
we’ll wreck it for you.”
AC: did that rattle you at all, John?
JG: Well, yea, in a sense it did. Because this guy was
directly threatening me. If I don’t cooperate with him
and tell his story, then you know, yea. And I’ve been
around, I was down at Oglala Pine Ridge. I know how
serious these people are. So when they make threats, I
know it’s not idle.
AC:….And that last visit, was again, who was visiting you
on that fourth visit?
JG: Ecoffey again.
AC: So that’s a lot to have gone through, and after that
fourth visit, again I know it’s hard with time, but
approximately, after that fourth visit when you refused
to cooperate again, how long after that before the
indictments came down in Denver last spring?
JG: Well, it was what…. I can’t remember the exact date
the last time they came up, but it must have been around
’96 or something.
AC: So, there were a good several years, five or six
years before you heard anything. So you had a respite
there. Now you must have heard that they were naming
you, and they were naming Arlo.
JG: Yea, and I think it was ’96 that I became aware of
everything that had been happening on the Internet. See,
I’m not plugged into the Internet at all, and I didn’t
know all this stuff had been carried on, on the Internet
for probably years, by that point. And all this stuff
that was going on, I had no clue it was happening, until
around ’96 the I realized….I started seeing the web
pages, and people started bringing it to my attention.
And I realized, “Whoa, this is getting pretty serious.”
And I had to deal with that, and, but still like you
know I can’t go and testify against somebody that I
don’t know ever happened.
AC: OK, so that, perhaps, leads us to the sort of odd unfoldings in the last ten days. We’re at the end of
March 2004, and in the last ten days or two weeks,
there’s been a particular group who claim to be a group
of indigenous women who have challenged your truth, and
claim they have evidence against you.
They recently did release a supposed tape, where they
recorded you and you more or less admit to the timeline
and the scenario of Anna Mae’s death that was presented
by Arlo Looking Cloud at his trial this past February.
Do you have a comment about this tape?
Maybe we could start with if you even remember speaking
to a journalist, and where this tape might have emerged
in reality. Obviously your voice is on there somewhere.
Where do you think this tape came from? Did someone
interview you, and can you recall that situation?
JG: Well, I’ve been interviewed lots of times over the
last few years. And every time I’ve been interviewed,
it’s been construed, or chopped, or I don’t know. All I
can say to that is if they’ve got this tape where I’m
saying all these things, and I know they don’t, but if
they say they do, why isn’t it on the evidence table?
AC: Have they released the tape to you and your team in
Canada?
JG: No. I read about it yesterday in the paper.
AC: And they had contacted you last week and tried to get
a comment about it?
JG: Right. And there’s some mention of it in the
extradition papers.
AC: Now, there’s a reference to this tape in the
extradition papers?
JG: There’s a reference to some kind of tape in the
extradition appeal here, that I said some things, or
placed myself at places that Arlo had placed me at. That
I’m supposedly admitting to all this stuff. No. If
they’ve got this, then put it on the evidence table.
Let’s bring it forward.
AC: But according to one of your attorneys, Terry Liberte,
the extradition process in Canada has now, supposedly
decided not to let your attorneys or yourself view the
evidence that the United States is holding. And that was
originally going to be available. Is that right?
JG: What they’re doing, they used Ecoffey’s name and the
different agents’ names and everything that came up to
get me arrested. But now for the extradition they take
these agents out. They’re not being used as witnesses.
AC: So they’ve changed the evidence presented originally?
JG: Yea and Ecoffey claims to be the one that opened the
case back in the ‘90’s. And why isn’t he called? His trips up here to Canada should be on the evidence table.
AC: So you’re not able to review all this evidence,
right? Your attorneys and yourself, you can’t see any of
this?
JG: No.
AC: So, this tape that we’re speaking of, that supposedly
has some kind of confession, or places you in a
timeline, is something neither you nor your attorneys
have been able to listen to? And a particular media
person contacted you saying he had heard that particular
tape?
JG: He won’t give me any source of where he got his tape,
other than this organization here, this women’s group…,
AC: Seems like their history is a little sketchy. Yes.
And so the fact is you haven’t been able to view this
tape now. Even in the article in The New York Times, an
AP article, there is mention of you placing yourself
Pine Ridge, with Arlo, with Annie Mae, with Theda. Can
you speak a little to the last time you saw Annie Mae,
and does this fit what they’re saying, what the tape
says? Wait, before we go there, John, I know naming
names is hard but for those of us in the media in the
United States, do you have a sense of which journalist
of all the one interviewed you might be the on who’s
flaunting this tape around?
JG: He was from South Dakota. He was a young guy, long
hair, cowboy boots. Said he was from Rapid City, or
worked around Rapid City, and I think he’s out of Europe
somewhere. And I can’t remember his name. He said he
wrote for a magazine called Stand. I think that’s the
guy. But on the evidence thing there, where it talks
about the tape, it’s signed by “CW”. And I asked,
“What’s CW?” And they just was “Concerned Witness.”
Don’t they have to produce a name? Can’t I face my
accusers? Just a concerned witness. I said concerned
witness, or something Walker?
AC: Well, there is a journalist named Carson Walker. He
is actually the person who wrote the New York Times
article, and he is the person who they let listen t the
tape. So, let’s go to the last,
JG: Well, he’s saying I admitted to this stuff when the
tape recorder was shut off.
AC: So let’s go, John, to the last time you saw Annie
Mae. Kind of tell us a little about that last time you
spent time with her.
JG: Last time when we drove from Denver to Pine Ridge,
and you know that ride there going to Pine Ridge, and
talking with her, gearing up. And then gettin to a safe
house.
Well she went in to talk to people in the house, and she
came back out, and she said she was all right there, and
we went back to Denver. That was the last time I saw
Anna Mae.
She was talking to me during that ride about her arrest
in Oregon, and about Price, agent David Price, and this
other agent that were interrogating her and hunting her
at the time. And she was very scared about the
possibility of running into Douglas Durham, who I’m sure
she had connected to Juancita Eagle Deer’s death. And I
think she might have even had information connecting him
to her. And she was very scared that she would run into
Durham, and he was going to do harm to her. And with
Price she was very scared of Price because Price did
threaten her. Told her she’d be dead within a year. And
the fact that he had written in his books, his notebooks
a detailed description of every part of her. Markings on
her body…
AC: When did he get those descriptions of her? Did she
speak about how that interrogation happened?
JG: When she was, I guess, arrested in Oregon. And
transferred her back to South Dakota. And it was during
that time that he made the threat, I guess. And took a
detailed, like she told me it was a detailed
description. Every mark on her body, even the labels of
her clothing he marked in his notebook.
Full description of her jewelry, her medicine pouch, and
all of this stuff. So he had a detailed description of
all of this stuff, and she was very scared about that,
and you know the fact that they were very capable. And
there were a LOT of people being killed at that time.
The tension at Pine Ridge was extreme. Violence was like
every second day.
AC: So there was foundation for her fear; it wasn’t she
was just this paranoid person. This was happening all
the time.
JG No, no, no. There was definitely, definite fear.
AC: Now, how did you end up driving Anna Mae from Denver?
JG: We knew each other, because we’re both from Canada.
We were…. If I was around and she needed a hand with
anything, she’d come ask me. I guess she heard I was in
Denver, and asked….so I went over to see her. We talked.
And that’s when we talked. I talked to her there, and
that’s when she started telling me she had to get out of
that house because there was just too much traffic
around there. And she was underground at that time,
hunted by the FBI. So she was pretty shook up, and
pretty paranoid about so many people being around in and
out and all that.
So she asked me if I would go to Pine Ridge with her. So
I agreed to. That’s what I did. And I agreed that if,
you know, by chance, we got pulled over or the Feds got
turned on to us, that I’d be the decoy while she got
away.
And you know that’s what I did.
AC: And there were a couple of people with you… was Arlo
looking Cloud in the car with you?
JG: Well, Arlo was there. He knew Pine Ridge. He knew how
to get around. I don’t think….Theda wasn’t there. We
might have used her car, but she wasn’t there. She
stayed at home.
AC: So, you remember Arlo being there with you, and he
rode back with you?
JG: Yea. And then after we got back to Denver, well I
tell you the truth I’ve never seen Arlo since. And I
didn’t, well it was only the first or second time I met
the guy, too. When we took the ride, was cause well all
his relations down there said he knew Pine Ridge; knew
he back roads and stuff.
AC: Oh, okay. And so everybody at the safe house there,
at Troy Lynn Yellow Wood’s house, they knew you were
going up to Pine Ridge to get Anna Mae out of there? Did
they know you were on a mission to get Annie Mae to a
safer place?
JG: I don’t know what they knew….It was time to get out
of that place. There was too much traffic.
AC: So she didn’t….there was no trouble at that end as
far as Annie Mae being able to get out of the house?
JG: No, not at all. That’s why I can’t understand these
people, all these witnesses, where they get off saying
she was tied up and stuff? There’s no way.
So, that’s what we did. Then we went to Pine Ridge. I
don’t know, might have been two, maybe three different
houses there, and she stayed at the last one. And we
drove back to Denver.
AC So, now, you got up to Pine Ridge, and you went to a
few different houses?
JG: Yea, two or three. I can’t really remember. And I
never went into any of the houses, so I don’t know who
they were.
AC: Alright, so let’s go to this place where you’re
saying this is the last time you saw Annie Mae alive,
yea?…. dropping her off at this house…., sometime before
Christmas?
JG: I guess so, yea.
JG: So, sometime before Christmas, you’re saying?
JG: You know, to be quite truthfully I couldn’t really
remember. I hate to guess.
AC: Okay, so there was a ride up there.
There was a bit of a time that went by before you heard
about Anna Mae’s death? Did you wonder what happened to
her? Did you question was she still alive? I mean did
you ever try to look for her after you dropped her off?
What happened with your friendship and your connection
with her between that time and the time you found she
had passed away?
JG: Well, I knew she was underground. You know. She was
on the run and she was being hunted by the Feds, where I
didn’t try to follow her. It’s safer.
When I heard about Anna Mae, I guess, I don’t know how
much time later it was; it was a while later, I guess. I
think I might have been on Pine Ridge I think maybe when
the first autopsy was done. And there was talk….I
remember people talking that they had an unidentified
body at the hospital. And some people from pine ridge, I
think there was an elderly woman I think who tried to go
view the body, and the FBI wouldn’t let her. And that’s
when they, I guess buried her as Jane Doe.
AC: Did you wonder if it was Anna Mae, John?
JG: I didn’t really know. You know? I didn't’ t know. It
seemed like, it was just a common thing….One of the
things that got me about it was a week later, or a week
and a half later they found Hubert Horse. Again, shot.
And that’s when I started getting a little concerned
that the FBI were living up to their word. That they
were going to get everyone that was involved in or
around the Ogallala shootout. I just had that feeling, You
know.
AC: Did you ever have a sense that the leadership of the
American Indian Movement, I mean we even have Russell
Means alluding to this, well not alluding, he’s actually
saying there was AIM leadership targeting her. And
certainly I’ve heard that myself, that there were
certain people in the American Indian Movement who felt
that Anna Mae was an informant. Had you heard that kind
of accusation against her in your travels?
JG: Just, well, from her.
AC: From her, herself? She knew?
JG: Well, she knew who they were. Like this John Blue
Legs, or whatever his name was. He was in camp, and she
pointed him out one day, and said, “This guy’s an agent
and he’s starting stories; he’s starting rumors.” She
pointed him out right in camp to me. And then you know
so I was leery about these people and I kept my distance
from them.
AC: So she turned you on to some of the people who
started stories against her. So she knew this was going
on. What camp was that?
JG: It might have been at Sundance camp, and it could
have been at Leonard Crow Dog’s.
AC And what were some of the things that you and Annie
Mae did together? Talk if you would, if you like, about
your relationship. Some of things you did with AIM, some
of the situations you survived together. You were quoted
on the danieltv.com interview as saying that Annie Mae
was your “sister in more ways than people can know.” You
want to talk a little about some of the things you
shared, about some of the times you went through
together?
JG: Well, I first met Anna at the Red Schoolhouse, in
Minneapolis, or St. Paul. And got to know herth ere. And
there was a call, or a request for help, I guess from
Pine Ridge or something. And a lot of people went down
there. This was in ’75. After Wounded Knee.
So we all went down there, several people went down.We
were around Pine Ridge through some of the trials, the
Custer trials were happening. Sarah Bad Heart Bull was
being sentenced. Lots of things were happening, like
state violence against people. And we were there…I was
witnessing all of this.
It was such a shock to me, to see all of that state
violence against such poor people.
AC: So she was educating you as to what was going on
within the government and the movement.
JG: Yea, you know, steering me around making sure I
didn’t get in with the wrong bunch, or something you
know.
AC: And so you traveled with her from the Red Schoolhouse
down to Pine Ridge. Did you guys keep traveling
together?
JG: Yea, we went down to Farmington, we were at the
Farmington convention, then back up to Pine Ridge again.
AC: So you were at Farmington when she was accused of
being an informant. Did she talk about that?
JG: No, she never….she was kind of pissed off that there
was rumors. But, there were rumors going around about
everybody, like I was an informant, too. (laughs) So we
didn’t take it that serious.
AC: I mean you weren’t an informant, but you were being
called, you were being accused of being an informant.
JG: I mean, ya, everybody was leery….and that was the
kind of atmosphere that was happening.
AC: So you didn’t witness any of this so-called… in the Arlo Looking Cloud trial Kamook Banks came out and said
there were guns pulled on Annie Mae, and she was
cornered. You did not witness any of that?
JG: No, and I do not believe it for a minute. Not for a
minute. Total bogus, because you know Leonard and Anna
Mae were close, and that I witnessed. And I know that
they were very dear friends. And Anna Mae was, you know,
the last time I seen her, she not only wanted to be at
Pine Ridge, but she wanted to reconnect with Leonard.
So there’s just no way that within that circle that
anybody doubted her.
AC: Now, there were people that questioned her being an
informant.
JG: I don’t know who would have questioned her, but maybe
it did happen, but she never mentioned that to me.
AC: you never witnessed it, and she never talked about
it?
JG No, she mentioned though that this John Blue Legs,
and pointed him out to me, had been in Farmington, too.
Doing the same, you know.
AC: Stirring things up.
JG Yea. And that’s who she was mad at, and others like
him that she didn’t know about but that were out there.
And that kind of stuff goes on when you’ve got
gatherings of 300, 400, 500 people.
AC: Do you know if this John Blue Legs was close with the
old AIM leadership back then? Or did he have any say
about decisions?
JG: I’m not sure what his history is with AIM, or how
he’d come to be he’d always seem to be around.
AC: And was he close to some of those guys?
JG: I wouldn’t know. I kept my distance from him.
AC: Alright. So you traveled with Annie Mae from the Red
Schoolhouse, you kind of hung out with her. Do have some
favorite story from your connection with her that you
would want to share with us? Something that helps us
know her and her ways and how she was in those days?
JG: Well, the only thing I could say, I guess, to try to
help people realize that. Like Leonard or Dennis or
myself never thought she was an informant, you know, we
went back into Oglala together immediately after the
shootout.
AC: After the shootout, you and Anna Mae went into Oglala?
JG: And Hubert Horse.
AC: And Hubert Horse was with you?
JG: And another brother by the name of Richard Star that
was from Canada, Saskatchewan. A lot of people risked a
lot in their personal safety and their freedom, as well
as laid their lives on the line, to help get these
people off the reservation.
Because there was a massive man hunt going down. And you
just don’t go into situations like that and come out,
and you know you’re an informant. She would have turned
everybody in right there. You know what I’m saying?
AC: Say that again for me.
JG: You don’t go into situations like that…we didn’t
expect to live out the day….there’s no way after going
through those experiences that I’d ever doubt her.
AC: you’re saying some of those top guys also knew how
committed she was. Laying herself on the line like that.
JG: Yea, and that’s like when she went to Pine Ridge, her
thing was trying to reestablish connection with Leonard
so she could get back. You know
That was, the last time I saw her that’s what she was
talking about. So there’s no way Leonard threatened her
or put a gun to her head, or anything like that.
AC: Do you have any recall of any stories about Kamook
Banks being upset with her?
-
JG: No, she didn’t talk to me about things like that.
AC: She didn’t talk any girl talk?
JG: No, she didn’t talk about any boyfriends.
AC: Do you have a favorite story about her? If this was a
more just world and you could talk to her daughters….
JG: Well, things like that story about us going back into
Oglala. It wasn’t an easy thing to do but we did it. And
to me that’s very memorable. We came very close to being
wiped out, and I know that. Those experiences are
bonding. When you go through these experiences with
people, and your life is threatened, and jeopardized.
AC: So you guys had that deep connection, surviving that
together. So how did she find you in Denver, how did she
know?
JG: Somebody came over to where I was staying. It could
have been Troy Lynn, could have been Theda.
AC: And what did they say?
JG: That she was here, and if I could, could I go over
and talk to her and speak to her. Those guys were pretty
hot after her.
AC: So now when she was found murdered, executed
brutally, did you have a theory in your heart? Did you
have a sense in your heart what had happened to her?
JG: No. Once they identified her, and I realized it was
her, and right after I said Hubert Horse was found the
same way, I just figured the Feds were living up to what
they said.
AC: So, you did have a sense…of what might have happened
to her.
JG: Yea, Well, when I heard Agent Price was involved, I
just figured, Agent Price was the first on the scene
when they found her, is what I was told, and I think he
was just confirming his kill.
AC: So that’s what you felt from the beginning?
JG: That’s what I still feel.
AC: And still carry that with you all these years later.
And so, have you, over the years in your own way honored
her? How would you say in your own way you’ve honored
Anne Mae and your friendship, and what she did for the
People?
JG: Well, I’ve always kept in my heart the direction, the
things that we’ve talked about in the movement. The
things we wanted to see happen there. The organizing and
everything that was going on needed to happen more in
Indian country. These are the things ideas we shared and
talked about, and how that could be, and how we needed
to educate the non-native people to the struggles of our
people.
And to try to make then understand, and it was important
that we were able to do that, and to verbally relay our
message and relay our struggle. And those kind of things
we’re always working at and trying to improve.
And over the years, I’ve always connected her death to
Leonard’s case, and the whole thing with the land
transfer, the uranium grab, the water rip-off that went
down at that time. It was all connected. I read
somewhere that like 330,000 acres was signed away to the
United States Government at the same time as the
Ogallala
shootout that nobody really knew about.
And then, okay, when you start to consider that we’re
talking about billions and billions of dollars in
resources. You know. And that kind of money, you’re
going to get corruption in the highest places in
government, and in corporations.
And that’s what South Dakota’s going through. Ever since
Custer, I think. They’ve been doing that to the Lakotas
and Dakotas continuously.
AC: This harassment, this land-grabbing, this genocide,
really.
JG: Really. And that’s what it is. And I’m looking here
reading through these transcripts of Arlo’s trial, here,
and man It’s just….kangaroo court is too easy a term.
It’s typical I guess, South Dakota.
AC: Another drunk Indian.
JG: Another drunk Indian attitude, yea.
AC: Speaking of that trial, and those transcripts, in
your heart, how did you feel when you’re seeing some of
the statements from people who might have been friends
of yours, that you may or may not have expected to
testify the way that they did, how are you feeling about
that? What goes through your heart and mind?
-
JG Well, it hurts. You know. It hurts really deep. These
people that are doing this, that are taking this stand,
and this rumor’s been persistent I guess for years now.
Why, WHY? couldn’t any one of these people have come and
talked to me, or ask me about it? Over all these years,
if they were hearing the rumours, why couldn’t they come
talk to me?
AC: So John Trudell never spoke with you?
JG: Not a word, not a peep.
AC: So no one never asked you if you were there at her
murder?
JG: None of the AIM leadership has ever talked to me
about this, or anybody else for that matter. All the
people who’ve written about this story, made
documentaries about it.
AC: Now the CBC interviewed you, right?
JG: the Fifth Estate. Then they chopped it up. They
interviewed me for three and a half hours, chopped it up
and used one minute of my interview.
AC: Right. So some of those people are old friends in
that trial saying those things. What do you think has
made them act this way, say these things?
JG: I think the FBI did their job really well. Really
Well. With their misinformation, and rumor mongering,
and they just bought right into it. And took it hook,
line and sinker. And now they all point the fingers,
everybody’s pointing the finger at everybody, as I
understand.
What’s that all about? They’re on each other. I don’t
think you can get two of the AIM leadership in one room
together for five minutes without probably doing each
other in.
AC: That’s divide and conquer. Old tactics.
JG: Exactly. And they fell for it. And you know. So we’ll
see, I don’t know. These people who want to cooperate
with the FBI and make this thing farce carry on, is you
know like to me in my mind, well they’re as bad as
criminals. Criminals that are doing everything they can
to keep Leonard incarcerated, and just incarcerated Arlo.
AC: And have you spoken to Arlo since all of this
happened.
JG: No, I haven’t.
AC And how do you feel about his testimony? His defense
was based on the fact that you pulled the trigger.
JG: Well, if you listen to it all down there, everybody’s
pointing the finger, putting the blame on me, because
I’m the guy that’s not there to defend his self. I must
have been responsible for the whole reign of terror. And
then, considering well I don’t know why Arlo… the whole
thing is doctored.
He’s been coached all the way through. And what I hear
about Arlo, he’s not very stable to start with.
AC: Well, one would imagine if YOU were approached about
this story and offered immunity, that the same thing
happened with Arlo. I mean that’s how I feel about it. I
know I’m not supposed to put my two cents in, but I do
sometimes. So then the fact is that you feel that Arlo
was approached with the same type of thing? You feel
that most of the people that cooperated had the same
kind of visits?
JG: Probably. Probably And I believe that probably people
like Trudell and that are coming up and testifying were
probably threatened to be blackballed or blacklisted in
LA. No more recording contracts. Or whatever. You know.
They’ve got a lot of weight on these guys.
Russell Means is going for a pardon from Janklow. Can
you believe that? I couldn’t. Where has this man’s mind
gone to?
AC: So, sometimes you feel alone in your strength? What
keeps you going, John? What keeps you clear?
JG: I believe in what I know to be right. What I know to
be truth. That’s what keeps me strong. And as I believe
in the truth, and that’s why I feel positive about this.
And I want to make something positive out of all of
this.
AC: And how do you see that going? How do you see this
next coming weeks? You’ve got an extradition hearing
coming up, and after that?
JG: I feel good. We went to court yesterday. We got
another month, so April 30,is the next court date.
That’s to appoint a judge, and to set a date for the
actual extradition hearing to start. And we’ve got a
team of four lawyers now, so I feel good about that.
Extradition experts. We’re ready to fight the
extradition; to oppose it any way we can…we’re still
putting our legal team together.
AC: So, what makes you positive. What keeps you going on
this? What good do you imagine coming from this, John
Graham?
JG: What do I imagine good coming from this? You know If
Anna Mae were alive today, if she were not locked up for
the rest of her life like Leonard, she would be working
dedicatedly 24/7 to free Leonard, and I know that.
That’s way I believe. And all these people who are doing
the finger-pointing and everything else, they talk about
due process. Well, what about Leonard’s due process? If
anything good can come out of this, then maybe the
crimes against that man will be exposed, and maybe that
man can be immediately and unconditionally freed.
Because it is wrong what they’re doing to him.
AC: And what about what they’re doing to you, John
Graham?
JG: Well Okay, I don’t like what they’re doing to me, and
it’s pretty much torn my life apart and everything you
know. But the forty days I spent in jail,there you know,
all I could think about and what gave me strength to get
through that was what Leonard had been going through for
the last 27, 28 years. You know. And I have nothing to
whine about. And yes this is a fight. Yes.
And we’ve been up against the state before; it’s not the
first time. So things are not surprising me, the way
they’re doing. That’s why I choose to remain positive
about this, and I think somewhere we’re going to find a
court that has some integrity. And that’s going to hear
the case and hear the truth and hear all of the facts
and not withhold any information, not with hold any
evidence, not fabricate any evidence. And one of these
days we’re going to find a court where indigenous
activists could get a fair hearing.
And I am hoping that is here in Canada.
AC: Do you have any final words to say to people in
general, people who want either to support you, support
your truth coming out.
JG: Well, first of all, greetings to everybody. Warm
greetings from my heart of happiness and health to
everybody out there listening. And a very big thank you
from my heart for all the supporters. And that is. This
is going to be a fight. I understand that we’re in for a
long fight, but the support is one of my main reasons
why I’m so . positive. Because of the support I’ve been
receiving since this all started happening. I never
realized how big this thing mushroomed. And I’m so I’m
really grateful for that. And I’d like people to know
that. And log onto
our web page;
there’s information on how people
can help. Write letters to our justice minister. To stop
the extradition. There is no fair trial in South Dakota.
If the FBI can fabricate enough evidence to warrant a
trial, then I would like that trial to be here in
Canada.
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