This is as an
interpretation of a traditional shamanic song by Elias
Mamallacta.
www.soundjourney.com/songs/ayahuasca.mp3
Also see Sound
Healing video
John LeKay: How and when did you first discover
shamanism and also the didgeridoo?
Richard Grossman: I think
shamanism really discovered me. From an early age, in my
mid-teens, I started being aware that there were realms
other than what we consider to be reality, and it completely
fascinated me. It fascinated me in a way that was familiar
and that was very eloquent. I didn't know what it was. I
didn't know what to call it. But I knew there was another
reality, and that reality was calling me. For example, I
would work with visualization and hypnotism with friends,
even though I didn't know what it was formally called. I
couldn't say it was shamanism per se, but it was this idea
that there was a spiritual world and, for whatever reason, I
kept on bumping into it, or it kept on bumping into me…in an
experiential more than an intellectual way.
JL:
And when did the idea
of shamanism, the word, as it were, come into your life?
RG: Much later. I ended up going
to India when I was 18 and deeply studying and practicing
techniques of self knowledge, self-awareness. Then going
through acupuncture school, which is really learning about
energy. And also doing different martial arts. During that
time period, I kept bumping into the extraordinary
realities. There would be times when the world would just
shift, and I would find myself in a different world, where
other people and beings were also. And it was beautiful,
though sometimes quite overwhelming.
I think the shamanism came in
when I committed myself to healing work. I'm trying to think
of when the term shamanism actually entered my space.
It was not a whole long time ago - maybe 15 years ago - when
I started recognizing that shamanism was a path of healing
that I wanted to pursue in a deeper manner.
JL:
How and when did you
discover the didgeridoo?
RG: I discovered the didgeridoo
sound a long time ago, when I first saw a movie
called Walk About. I had no idea what the instrument
was or how it was played, but the sound of it fascinated me.
Then, probably 12-13 years ago, I was at a party, and there
was a didgeridoo player - a man from Australia - who was
making the most amazing sounds with the didge. After the
party I cornered him and said “I want to learn how to do
this.” He sold me a didge, gave me a couple of very brief
lessons, and there I was with a didge in my house, basically
driving my family crazy. I spent hours and hours just trying
to get sounds out of it, looking on websites - at that time
there were only a few about didgeridoos - and getting the
idea of what circular breathing was. After I got somewhat
good at it, I just started playing it on people and seeing
the profound ability that this instrument has to put people,
number one, in a state of almost instantaneous relaxation
and, number two, in a very quick state of trance. Using the
didgeridoo as a method of trance-induction, working on
people in the places in their bodies where they were stuck,
was what I initially started using it for. I still use it
that purpose, but also as a musical trance inductor during
the soundJourney concerts.
JL: Lakota medicine man,
Frank Fools Crow said this about becoming a hollow bone. He
believed that he went through four stages. First, he called
in Wakan Tanka to rid his patient of everything about them
that would get in the way, such as doubt, questions or
reluctance. Then he recognized himself as a clean vessel or
tube, ready to be filled with hope, possibilities, and
anxious to be filled with power. He experienced the power
as it came surging into him. Finally, giving power away to
others, knowing that as they are emptied out, the Higher
Powers will keep filling them with even greater power to be
given away.
Do you also have a particular method that enables you to
enter the healing trance state?
RG: Oh yeah. The first thing
that I always do, when I'm working on a patient, is to take
their pulse. In the Chinese Medicine model of pulse-taking,
you're tuning into what's going on in the inner parts of a
person's body; you're basically analyzing their health and
the health of all of their organs. What I'm also doing, when
I'm doing that, is praying. And I'm working on becoming that
open clear vessel.
One of the prayers that I use, I
think it's a variation on a Baha'i prayer, is “Creator, make
me as a hollow reed from which the pith of Self has been
removed so that thy love, thy grace, thy healing, thy
beauty, thy power, thy sound, may flow through me unimpeded,
so that this healing and this ceremony may be blessed
I do a recitation of that in my
mind. I ask that any higher spirit beings, who might be
present for that person's good, will be there and assist me
in the healing. Then I try to empty myself of all of my
preconceptions and ideas. That's a bit of a dichotomy
because I am accessing all of the information and things
that I've learned in the past and, at the same time, I am
trying to be empty.
I also make myself open to
inspiration. Sometimes I find that, during music healings or
acupuncture healings, I do things that don't quite make
sense to me, but I do them anyway. Since I have made that
prayer, and since I am working on being open to higher
healing forces or higher energies, I want to trust them to
work with me. So sometimes I have an impulse, out of
nowhere, to say something to somebody. And I don't really
know where it's coming from, or why I'm saying it, but it
comes out of me.
I think one of the most dramatic
examples was the time I had a patient come to me, and I
looked at her and said, “You're pregnant.” She had just
found out that day that she was pregnant with an ectopic
pregnancy and had to be aborted. Because I was able to say
that to somebody who was basically coming to me for back
pain, the healing that day went much deeper than it would
have if I had censored that information, if I had thought,
Oh well, it's just your imagination.
JL: Can you please describe
how sound can penetrate us and how it resonates through our
cells and DNA and the impact sound has?
Sound is vibration. Sound is
energy. Sound is physical energy. The sound begins in the
instrument, which is converting physical energy into sound
vibration. It could be done by striking a string, or rubbing
a string, or hitting a drum or a gong, or opening one's
mouth to let sound come out with the vocal chords vibrating
and the mouth shaping the way sound flows. Whatever the
instrument is, it is physical force being turned into sound
vibration.
Sound vibration then travels
through the air and hits everybody - the person in
particular that I'm working on or the group I'm working on -
and a whole lot of things happen at that time. First,
obviously, is that the hearing mechanism is activated. What
that does is to change the physical vibration of the sound
in the air into a neuro-chemical-electrical communication
that then goes into the brain. When it hits the brain,
depending on what the sounds are and how the person receives
them, different parts of the brain “light up.” The
information gets analyzed, and conclusions are made. Then
there's a near-instantaneous release of signaling
neurotransmitters, which the brain manufactures, that go to
the body and tell it how to react to that particular sound
and information.
For example, the sound of a
siren triggers emotions of fear and alarm. That's what it's
designed to do, like “Get Out Of The Way, This is an
Emergency!” It's a very powerful sound. One of the basic
fears we're born with is the fear of loud noise. So loud
noises trigger shock, trigger deep fear. That's why people
in war zones get shell shock. Even if they are not
physically injured, their brains are injured from the sound
and the fear and the terrors that are there. That's the
negative side of it all.
When the sounds are emotional
sounds, the typical Country Western or old Rock `n Roll
stuff - “Oh my baby left me, and I'm so sad and blue” - that
kind of stuff triggers the emotions of sadness, melancholy
and regret. For some people, it can be very healing; it
brings up emotions that need to be worked out.
When we get into the sacred
sound area, we're dealing with more pure vibrations. We're
dealing with sounds that stimulate the upper level centers
of a person, the higher chakras so to speak, and when those
sounds are experienced by the brain, even if people have
never heard them before, they tend to be familiar. They tend
to be, “Ah…I've been waiting to hear that!” One aspect of
this is that the neurochemicals created are chemicals of
ease and relaxation, comfort and spirituality, which by
their very nature are healing.
How that changes the DNA is
highly speculative. In my mind it's more about how the DNA
communicates to the cell and via the messenger molecules
created within the cells to the rest of the body. Does sound
change the actual DNA? There is DNA in every single one of
the trillions of cells in our bodies, and to have the DNA in
every cell of our body change . . . I don't know. But it
certainly is possible that DNA's expression, or how the DNA
communicates to the body via messenger chemicals, may change
in a way that could be very healing for a person.
JL: How is affecting the
DNA different from affecting the cells?
RG: Cells are really complex. The
second phase of sound healing is when the sound actually hits
the body. We know that the denser the medium, the better the
sound travels. So in air, sound will travel, depending on its
strength and loudness, not particularly far. Unless it's a very
loud sound. Sound will travel faster and easier through more
solid mediums, such as water, or even, if you want to hear sound
pass through something really fast, a piece of metal. The sound
will go through a piece of metal for quite a long way. Think of
the old western movies where the hero puts his ear to the train
track and can hear the train coming long before he could hear it
though the air.
When the sound hits the body's
surface - because our bodies are 70-something percent water
- the sound vibrations penetrate the body and, in my mind,
they give a massage, on the cellular level, to every cell in the
body. That could very likely change the action potential of the
cell membrane and how the cell functions. Each cell is like its
own individual universe or creature; we're a conglomeration of
trillions of cells that are each an individual creature. And
each one of those creatures, in my vision of this anyway, when
the sound hits it, goes, “Yeah! This is fun. Let's dance!” And
that, in itself, is healing, because if the cells are happy, the
body is going to be happy. It's like we're a community. The
cells get this vibrational massage, and of course they're going
to function better, if it's the right kind of massage.
Historically, in certain cultures,
sound has been used as a profound healing tool. For example, in
certain Amazonian tribes, you would go to a curandero or
a curandera for treatment. They might give you herbs,
they might give you some counseling, but they will often also
give you a song, sing a song to you. We go to a pharmacy for a
prescription; they go to the curandero for a song. And
the songs can specifically heal organs in the body. That's also
very much a part of the Tibetan Tantric tradition, and the
mantras from India can be utilized in the same way.
JL: Is it a certain pitch or
sequence of notes that can create this sound healing as in
Tibetan chants, Vedic mantras and the practice of Shabda Yoga?
That's true. I think what's even
more powerful and more important is the intent of the person
creating the sound. To me, these things provide a vehicle for
intention. There is this constant that C is the root chakra, D
is the second chakra and so on. But I'm not sure. I have some
trouble with that simply because it seems simplistic to me.
Specific sounds, specific tones…I think that's where the skill
of the healer comes in. If I'm directing my intention to the
healing of the liver, it might be helpful to get the right
frequency of the liver, but that may just be someone's concept.
It's certainly an area where deeper study and scientific
research would be valuable. I think the real power comes in the
intention of the healer, the focus of the healer.
JL:
I assume that Tibetan chants are set structures.
But you don't work with set structures when you work with sound.
RG: No, I work with inspiration and
intuition. I did do that (calculate the effect of a series of
notes) in one of my CDs, in the songs I play for patients while
they're getting acupuncture. That uses the philosophy of set
tones and set notes and vibrations for different purposes. But
when I'm doing my live sound healing work, I'm going more by
inspiration and what feels right at the moment. Using more
indigenous instruments rather than trying to create a specific
tone frequency.
JL: Do you use a particular sound for a specific illness?
RG:
When I am working on a patient, I will use a process of
muscle testing to see which specific instruments their
body/mind/spirit is asking for and needing at that moment.
Usually it's a combination of different sounds. But sometimes
it's important for the person to listen to silence, which is a
powerful sound.
JL: What effect does the shamans rattle have on your patients?
RG: The rattle is one of the first
instruments I use when I'm doing healing work with people. I
think it does several things. First off, it rattles you. There's
a reason why we use that word. It rattles a person; it starts to
upset their ability to think clearly or to maintain their
structured patterns of thought. It begins to turn off the
conscious mind, or at least quiet it down. It's a fascinating
sound, and it's one of the oldest sound healing instruments.
Rattles and drums and voice and clapping hands are among the
oldest sounds that people have used, along with the didgeridoo
in Australia. The rattle is such a simple thing, but it
powerfully starts to shut off the conscious mind and to break
open structures, destructure the way energy is flowing in the
body, to allow for a new patterning of energy. I think it also
creates a very high vibration, and that, in and of itself, is
going to allow for opening receptivity to healing.
JL: Have you ever worked or practiced with an (North) American
native healer, medicine man?
RG: No, I have not been given that honor
yet.
JL: Why do you think much of this Native American sacred
knowledge is kept secret?
RG: The Native American culture, in
North America, has been holocausted. It's been decimated. It's
been taken to the brink of extinction and, for many tribes,
taken into extinction. And it's been taken into this state by
the European cultures and its decedents. The Native American
culture is a profoundly deep culture with deep traditions and
wisdom. The European model, or even the New Age model, is not
profound and deep…not yet. It's the model of “Yeah, I'll go buy
a picture of a Native American, get a dream catcher, buy some
sage, change my name to something cool like Tall Oak, have a
“past life” vision, and think that I'm versed in indigenous
American Indian Medicine.”
It's also important to understand
that there is no Native American Culture, per se. Each tribe
had its own traditions, beliefs, ways of healing, and ways of
connecting to Spirit. When the Europeans first came to this
country, there were hundreds of tribes or family-based tribal
units, and somewhere between 40-90 million natives. Now there
are around 3 million people and a few hundred recognized
tribes. Again, each tribe is distinctive with its own beliefs
and culture.
However, from what I understand from
Native American cultures in general, it is that to learn their
medicine takes years and years and years and years of deep,
profound one-on-one study. And it's an honor and a gift to be
given that. I think they are keeping much of their wisdom
guarded - I won't even say secret; I'll say guarded - because of
the propensity that white Americans have to enter things
shallowly, to mix up Native American medicine with their own
ideas and concepts, which only creates a strangely bizarre New
Age idealized and very watered down shadow of the original
intent of the Medicine people. I think Native Americans are
protecting their sacred knowledge. They're keeping it pure;
they're keeping it clean. They're keeping it as their own
medicine, which is certainly their right.
JL:
Do you want to speak a
little to the native healers you have worked with?
RG: I've worked with South American
healers, because that's where my calling is. It's a much more
syncretic tradition there, where it is okay to mix together
different medicines. For example, you might go to a curandero
in Mexico or South America, and on their altar will be some
indigenous statutes; there will be herbs, some rocks; there will
be different perfume waters; there might be a Buddha; there
might be different saints; there might be things from five or
six different cultures. A Tibetan bell might be on their altar.
Sometimes you even get stuff like Hershey's or Reese's. All
these bizarre, interesting conglomerations of different
cultures. Because in that tradition it is quite acceptable to
take whatever works and utilize it. This is different from the
Native North American tradition, where you find people really
holding onto and protecting the old ways. There are certainly a
number of people out there who are not practicing according to
the old ways who say they are. Usually they are best-selling
authors and not really respected by most Native Americans.
Since I live in Los Angeles, and
I've been in the Western states for awhile, I've been around
Native American healers, and I deeply respect them and deeply
appreciate them, but I haven't formally studied with any of
them.
JL: Is there a particular book that has been helpful in your
healing practice?
RG: Not really. Many, many books. But
again, you can't get the wisdom from a book. You can get
information, you can get knowledge, but the wisdom comes from so
much experience: life experience, experience of working with
others, experience of observing how the world works, watching
people go through the aging process, and, ultimately, watching
people pass from this world. It's a very bittersweet path to
wisdom.
JL: Do you believe that
some illness derive from a metaphysical source, in order to wake
people up or for another reason?
RG: There are different kinds of
illnesses. The New Age-y idea that everything happens for a
purpose and you bring it all on yourself…that has some wisdom to
it, but I don't think it's a hard and fast rule. I think most
illnesses - especially the chronic illnesses - source themselves
in being out of harmony with the environment and with a person's
own individual being. An unhealed trauma from childhood, which
never gets brought up for healing, which is shoved off into a
hidden closet in the back recesses of the mind or body over the
course of years, will accumulate stagnant energy and will create
an environment for pathological energy. And of course, years
and years, even months and months, of that, depending on the
severity, will lead to physical illness.
Given that, we live in a time when
the physical illnesses we're experiencing are also caused by our
environment. Which is of course another lesson. Many of them are
caused by the foods that we choose to eat or that are fed to us
by the industrial agro-business. We're getting foods that are
devoid of life force, that are devoid of nutrition, that are
filled up with chemicals, artificial flavors and artificial
colors. It's very separate from the world we should be living
in. I'll go out into the country with friends, or out into
nature for ceremony, even into the jungle in South America, and
people talk about getting back to “the real world,” as though
the life that we're living in these cities is the real world.
Sorry, but this thing we call modern civilization is the
artificial world. This is an experiment that is obviously
failing and may, at some point, collapse. It's not sustainable.
So, living in this environment, we get the illnesses that we're
getting because the environment has lessons, has pointers, to
say “Hey, you're living in a cesspool. Clean it up!” That's one
level of lesson.
Every illness has the potential to
be a wake-up call for Spirit. In Chinese Medicine, there's a
saying that it's okay to let your patient die, but not to have
them perish. Certain illnesses are going to be fatal. Every
person, at some point in their life, is going to have a
situation that is going to be fatal for them. But even in those,
there is opportunity for forgiveness, for release, for letting
go, for learning, for getting out of the space that caused that
illness. Is that important? Yes. Even if you're going to die,
it's important. Going back to the first question, the other part
of the prayer that I always put in, which I did learn from a
Native American, is “May this healing be not only for the person
I'm working on, but for all the children, all of creation.” I
think if one person heals, learns the lesson of their illness,
then their relations may also have a portal opened to them for
healing.
I don't think this understanding can
be found in books. The idea that your back hurts because you're
not being supported, or that your knee hurts because you're
afraid, or whatever it is…I think that's simplistic and wrong.
It's like a dream interpretation book (that says) if you're
dreaming of this it means that. It doesn't work. It doesn't
necessarily have wisdom within it.
What's the message? What am I being
given the opportunity - and opportunity is really key here -
what am I being given the opportunity to learn through this
illness? And that really requires leaving self pity. That
really, really requires leaving blame. It requires leaving any
vestige of the interpretation of disease as a punishment or
negative energy. It's an opportunity to learn, as are all things
if we choose to perceive them that way.
JL: What I hear you saying
is that this type of work requires not blaming symptoms.
RG: It requires listening to the
symptoms. But not blaming. Definitely not blaming. What I see
with people so often is that, if they're blaming their illness,
it's a loss of individual power. It's a loss of the person's
individual volition and their ability to learn from their
illness. And, in a way, blame traps you within the cycle of the
illness.
JL: So do you believe that
some illnesses derive from a metaphysical source? Do you
think Spirit gives people certain illnesses to wake them
up?
RG: I think illnesses do wake people up.
Is it a metaphysical source? Are gods or goddesses or angels or
devils making people sick? I don't think so. I think it can be
disempowering for people to blame Spirit for their illnesses. We
live in a universe of cause and effect where everything is
important, especially in regards to health. What we eat, what we
believe, how we process trauma, how we think, and what goes on
in the subconscious part of the mind, all contribute to health
or its lack. Sometimes it's just a genetic error or an unknown
exposure to toxins in the environment that causes illness.
Of course, the picture might be a
lot bigger than we can know. For example, the theory of Karma
holds within it the idea that the wounds and actions from
previous incarnations can have a big impact on a person's
current state of health. But even in this ideology, these things
can be worked on and worked out in the present. Again, illness
is always an opportunity for healing.
JL: Can you please talk about why we as a society need to use
more ancient wisdom traditions and healing such as shamanic
healing, as opposed to traditional western European medicine?
RG: Traditional Western medicine
is
shamanic in its nature. It is alchemical in its nature. It
is earth-connected in its nature. What we're dealing with right
now, that we call traditional western medicine, is not traditional Western medicine; it's a very new experiment of
cracking open herbs and finding the one thing in them that
creates an effect, and then patenting that. Or creating new
chemical compounds in laboratories. It's very new. I think we
need to get back to the roots of the indigenous healers, of the
old ways, because the new ways don't work well in most
situations. Add to that the prohibitive cost of modern medicine
and the lack of the human contact doctors used to have with
their patients, in the pre-HMO days, and you can see how modern
medicine is way out of balance with the harmony that is true
health.
There are certainly Western-created,
scientifically-created, medications that can be almost
miraculous in their effect on the body and can save lives, where
the older ways would not be able to save a person's life. For
example, antibiotics can be absolutely life saving. But they
have a very high cost, both financially and in their negative
effects on a person's body. The older ways, the shamanic ways,
the ways of the herbalists and the alchemists, serve a function
that should, in probably 90% of all illnesses, be the first
choice of treatment, simply because they're sustainable, and
they work, and they help to connect a person into their
environment, and into the world of nature, in a much more
harmonious way.
For example, in a Chinese formula
you might have between four and 100 different herbs, or more. If
I were a laboratory scientist, I'd say, “Let's take that formula
and find what in there helps the kidneys, or what in there is an
antibiotic, or what in there lowers blood pressure.” What one
chemical in there. But, in a Chinese formula, you get a
synergistic effect of all these different herbs having been
prepared and cooked together, new compounds created during the
cooking process, and dozens if not hundreds of thousands of
active constituents that are all working on different parts of
the body at the same time, having different effects on the body
at the same time, for the purpose of healing. It's a much deeper
wisdom. It's much more difficult to learn than “Ah, the person
has a nasal infection, let me give them tetracycline.” There's a
deeper wisdom and connection in these old ways. Even though we
are modern people, if we disconnect ourselves totally from
nature, we're cutting ourselves off from the source of our life.
As we can see, if we look at the world with open eyes, right now
we are cutting off the branch that we're sitting on.
JL: What do you mean when
you say the traditional ways are more sustainable?
If it's done with respect, the vast
pharmacopoeia of nature is something that will sustain itself,
which will, with our assistance, provide us with vast quantities
of medications, as long as we don't chop down all the forests
and jungles and destroy it all. Or fill up all the swamps. It's
been the human medicine until a hundred years ago. Used more
successfully in some areas than others, but certainly something
that should be continued.
JL: How have our instincts been subverted? How can one get
in touch with their instincts, intuition, once this is lost.?
RG: They've been subverted in almost
every way possible, going back to: What is the real world? What
does it mean to spend time in nature without a Frisbee? Without
a radio? Without an iPod©? Without all the things we
do to insulate ourselves from nature?
A simple example is in the food
industry. Our bodies have instincts. I remember when I was in
school, they said people don't have instincts because we're
higher beings; we have our thought process. But our instincts
are what taste good to us, what smell good to us. Almost all of
what tastes good to you is going to be good for you if it comes
from the natural world. Of course there are poisonous mushrooms
and things like that, but that's the wisdom of understanding
nature. Our instincts will direct us towards that which is good
for us. For instance, our bodies need lots of vitamin C. We're
one of only two mammals that don't produce vitamin C within our
bodies. Where is vitamin C found in nature in high quantities?
In fruits. And what flavor do most fruits have? Sweet. So we
have an unlimited instinctual desire for sweetness. It's really
hard to eat too much sweet. And anybody who is a chocolate
addict knows what I'm talking about. So that's an instinct.
It's instinctive for us to avoid
eating rotten foods; they're not good for us. It's instinct that
has a horse finding grass tasting good, and a lion finding that
grass may be okay for medicine, but it's not something he's
going to eat a lot of. It's the instinct that tells the lion
that a freshly killed animal tastes good, and an old rotten
animal doesn't taste good. It is instinct that tells a vulture
that decaying meat might be good for it. These are all
instinctual things based on what is pleasing to us.
So if I take a food that is devoid
of nutrition, or take something that's sweet and take out all
the sugar and serve only the sugar, our instincts say Yeah, this
sugar is good! Our minds might know differently, but our
instinct is that it's good. Yet it's devoid of nutrition. So
it's a subversion of our instincts. To take something that
tastes like cardboard and put a lot of artificial flavorings in
it so that it tastes good is a subversion of our instincts. Look
at the list of chemicals on the side of any food you buy.
Artificial and natural flavors will always be there, because
these things taste like cardboard without it.
Television and the electronic world
also dull the senses. I'm thinking about how many people will go
into the most exquisitely beautiful natural environment and turn
on their iPods. I was at Macchu Picchu, which is certainly one
of the most beautiful places I've ever been to, and there were a
bunch of people who started playing Frisbee. Cool, they played
Frisbee in Macchu Picchu, but they were missing the glory and
the beauty that was there.
JL:
So how does one get in
touch with intuition and instincts once it's lost?
With food, start going for natural.
Eliminate the artificial. Start learning how to cook. How to
taste again. Spend time tasting. Get organically grown food and
see what it tastes like. Eat organic apples for a few weeks, and
then buy a non-organic apple and see which one tastes better to
you. Your instincts will probably go, Ew when you bite into the
non-organic apple!.
Go into nature and learn how to be
still. Learn how to see things. There's this phenomenon that
happens when technological people go into nature, of Well, what
do I do now? I want to climb that rock; I want to dig up some
plant. What is it just to be still? To listen and to hear the
sound of the wind in the leaves and the crickets and the
creatures? What is it to really slow down enough to be in the
world in which you live?
JL: Is this different from
meditation?
RG: Meditation is turning inside.
Meditation is a focus on inner realities. This is tuning into
the world as a creature living in the world. The Native
Americans talk about the messages that animals bring. When I
first heard that, I was like, “Oh cosmic. Animals come up and
talk to me.” Well they do, but they do it in their own language.
The squirrel might do it with the waving of its tail. Or how it
moves, or how it very carefully gathers acorns or nuts and then
buries them. That's listening to the squirrel; it's by watching
it, by understanding its squirelness. It isn't waiting for some
cosmic realization; that's all in imagination. But watch how
nature evolves, how nature moves, how plants grow, how trees
grow. What is the medicine of an oak tree? What is this being
that can be 500, or 600, years old, that's been sitting there
being an oak tree for 500 or 600 years? What is its strength?
What is its power? What is its message to us? Connect into that.
What is the medicine of a rock that is millions or billions of
years old? What does that level of eternity, or near eternity,
and patience have to teach us? The rock's not going to speak
English to you. If it does, I think you might have a problem.
But the rock does, just by its very rockness, communicate
something to you if you're willing to listen.
JL: And you believe it is
possible for people to retrieve their intuition?
RG: Oh yeah. If they want to. I think
anything is possible if you want it. Not everything, but living
in harmony with nature is certainly possible. It's not too late
for humanity to turn that around. If more and more people start
choosing to do so, it will wake people to Yes, this is common
sense. We need to be connected into our roots again. It is the
only way our species will survive the next hundred years. It
certainly isn't going to happen by putting up a space ship to
shield us from too much sun. It's not going to happen by
sequestering carbon dioxide under the ground. That's putting a
bandage on a festering wound. We need a total renewal of
learning from our ancestors, who did have, maybe not more
intellectual knowledge than we do, but certainly more wisdom
than we do.
JL:
How do you define the
difference?
RG: Between wisdom and intellect? Wisdom
is deeper. Intellect is the pieces of the puzzle, and wisdom is
the puzzle. I think we have the ability now to have more wisdom,
because we do have more knowledge, but wisdom, to me, involves
looking at the whole picture, not being afraid to see the whole
picture, and being willing to change. Wisdom is deep connection;
it's putting the pieces together in a way that is pleasing to
Spirit.
JL: Do you think that many
western doctors are naive or simply brainwashed into believing
that their methods of the knife, radiation, chemicals are the
only ways to go?
RG: Naïve and brainwashed. Those are the
tools they have. Again, going into technological medicine is
marvelous, but it disconnects them from the older ways of a
healer; they become repositories of intellectual knowledge.
Which is good - if I had an odd disease, I'd want to know what
it was, and I often send people to Western diagnosis because an
X-ray sometime tells more, an MRI sometimes tells more, than all
of the pieces that I could find put together. But I think wisdom
is in knowing which method to use when. We can't ignore
technology. Technology is not evil. It's how it's used, or not
used, that can be good or evil. One of the things I joke about
with traditionalists - and I've gone through this in the
acupuncture community a lot - is if you took Beethoven and put
him into this world right now, don't you think that he would
have all the possible computer tools and music-making things
possible to allow his genius to express itself? Or do you think
he would say, Oh I just want an old classical orchestra, because
that's the tradition? His eyes would pop out of his head, I
would think, with what's possible now. The wisdom is in knowing
what to use and when to use it.
JL: Do you think progress is being made in terms of European
Doctors becoming more open minded, regarding shamanic healing?
RG: Not yet, at least not enough yet.
There is definitely more openness now than there was 15 years
ago - to all aspects of natural healing. And I don't know that
what they're learning is going to be called shamanic healing.
But I do think progress is being made in opening up to other
ways. What's happening now is a start. But it's not anywhere
near where we need to be to have real healing and real health in
our bodies, minds, and spirits.
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