Painting by Billy Childish

BC: There's a little bit of movement but not much activity. Activity would be like praising it too much. Maybe they are good at moving the furniture around a bit: the sofa over by the fire or next to the bay window. I mean we are talking about things that are meant to be creative. So maybe they’re active in some way but not particularly creative. And of course, it doesn't mean that you’re not creative just because you’re not in the center of things. Actually, it gives you a lot more breathing space on the outside – to be creative - if you’re that way inclined. Though I personally don't see myself as an outsider at all, I see myself completely central to what things should be like, even if I’m not invited to the party. A lot of the ‘inner’ pretend to be outsiders anyway so we are going to swap places.

JL: That's how I see it actually, it's kind of the same way. I see it as a an illusion.

BC: Yeah, it's delusion. 

JL: Yeah delusion. Remember Studio 54, the place where they used to put those velvet ropes up and only

certain fancy people would be allowed in and it was done deliberately to try and make the people inside
much more beautiful and feel more important? 

 

BC: No, I've never heard about that, but I do know that I don't have any particular interest in outsider art, or outsider people. It’s the same as I don't have any real interest in the ones that think they are insiders either. All I’m interested in is people having honesty, integrity and that's a tall order wherever you are.

JL: So, I would say that the rules and regulations are pretty strict in most of these fine art industries. What would you most have a problem with - what you can and can’t do? How you can behave? What you can say?

 

BC: Well it’s usually what you need to do that I can’t stomach. I don't get along

with music people, art people or publishers, because they want things produced in a certain way. They want to spend your money anyway they think fit. They don't have much regard for artists. That’s why I don't get on with them. I mean they give you money with one hand and spend it for you with the other.  So that you can become? I don't know, successful? Rich? Or attempt those things and probably fail anyway.

JL: I read this article in the London Times about this journalist who met with you.

BC: It's not really called the London Times. The Times is a national newspaper. 

JL: What is it the Times of London then?

BC: It's just The Times newspaper. It’s not like America over here, we’re small and

have a lot of national papers.

 

JL: Yeah I keep thinking of the Times of New York.

 

BC: No, we don't do that. I think it might have been called the London Times sometime during the Jurassic period.

Childs Death letter, Billy Childish selected lyrics. Photos by Eugene Doyen

JL: Laughs. I think that's what Americans call it over here. I could be wrong. But this Times of London
writer made these snidy comments where he would praise you on one hand and then he would
make these little digs. 

Where do you think that sort of thing comes from? Do you think it's insecurity with these writers who feel
they have to invalidate you somehow, so they are not seen as giving you all out praise?

BC: I think it depends on who it is, but I've noticed that in the English press it's quite common now to have a photograph of the person who's writing the article at the head of their column. Which I think means they feel that they should have some celebrity status of their own. And I think you can get the situation where the journalist wants to make sure everyone knows they are smarter than the idiot they are writing about. It's a bit like these television hosts - they just want to make sure the people realize who's in charge.

 

JL: So it’s like a control thing?

BC: I would say it’s just a little ego wank. 

JL: That makes a lot of sense. 

JL:  What are some of the things you find truly inspiring?

BC: I suppose I like flowers quite a lot and sky and what other things, little animals playing. Children coming up with strange questions.  Mainly things like that. Trees and colours.

JL: What happened in this Buddhism group when there was a little bit of how would you describe it? Was that a misunderstanding about philosophy?

BC:  I don't know really. I went along to a group called The Friends of the Western Buddhists Order in England, and they used to have a discussion group after the sitting where you talked about Buddhist philosophy. I used to go with my friends and we called it ‘the Buddhist punch up’ because actually discussion wasn't really encouraged.  It was more about the boss sounding off a bit and he didn't like people contradicting him.  I formed a sub group, unbeknownst to him - within the organization, called The Friends of the Enemy's of the Western Buddhist Order.

JL: Laughs.

BC: Because I figured it was more Buddhist to be friends with the enemies, because anyone can be ‘Friends of the Western Buddhist' order, but we were Friends of the Enemies of them. I think it's more inclusive, personally. These fellows all had silly names, so we had names as well. I ordained myself as Itchy Scrotum,

JL: Laughs really loud.

Painting by Billy Childish

 

Painting by Billy Childish

BC: The names were along those lines, so we had itchy scrotum, Toy Gun Grandma and Mighty Boulder. That was us three.

 

JL: That's hysterical. Laughs.

 

BC: The boss told us that we should have love and compassion for everybody, but that no matter what, some people will never change. I said ‘like who?’ and he said ‘alcoholics for instance’. I said ‘oh right’ and of course being what I would term as an ex-alcoholic – though apparently I'm not allowed to be an ex-alcoholic as I'm told there's no such thing. I thought this rather a strange idea; that particularly alcoholics couldn't change.

 

So, I put up my hand and said “but I thought the whole point of doing meditation is that you believe in change. Isn’t that what meditation is all about? Surely, the Buddha wasn't enlightened before he was enlightened. He had to undergo some sort of transformation otherwise he wouldn’t be enlightened and there wouldn't be any point in following the path. So the boss told me that I was "argumentative".

 

JL: So then this Buddhist boss guy, was he enlightened or something?

 

BC: We will leave that up to the reader to decide.

 

JL: Ok. Laughs.

JL: Have you done any acting in films?

 

BC: A couple of things, but not what I would call acting, nor that anyone else would call acting either. Laughs. For arguments sake, let's say that I have. A friend of mine made photographs and films. He's got a photograph book coming out soon actually.

 

JL: What's the name of the book?

 

BC: I think it's called Alive and Well Dying in Chatham. It's photographs of me and the groups I’ve played in over the years and people we both knew.

 

JL: What's his name?

 

BC: Eugene Doyen. I’m doing a photograph book as well. We're doing them together – two books. Eugene made films in the 80’s. We did one about the life of Kurt Schwitters. A funny sort of Dadaist film. Then we did several other films and I had speaking parts in those. I was chosen because I knew how boring it was standing around waiting for films to be made. I was included, not because of my acing abilities, but because of my endurance.

Billy Childish filming with his super 8

An original film by Billy Childish

JL: When did you do these other films?

 

BC: About 1984, then several around the late 80s, early 90s, I think. The longest one was about a half hour. I’ve made little films on super 8 as well. Sometimes.

 

JL; Was it for your music or for just films?

 

BC: A bit of both. All on the cheap. I did a documentary a year or so ago. The first music one I did was when we were on Sub Pop with all these grunge groups in the early 90’s. I think we were the only English group on there at the time. We did a one off album with them and they wanted to pay for me to fly to New York and let some bloke make a video with some girls dancing and I said send me a hundred quid and I'll make you a film and send it to you, and that's how that started. I did it on super 8 and sent them the stuff.

 

JL: How did that work out?

 

BC: I think they were dubious that I had done it. They thought I hadn't really done it but someone else had. They thought it was too good for someone as stupid as me.

 

JL: When you make these albums, do you have a label that you work with?

BC: Well we did our first record on our own in 1979. We borrowed some money off a friend/enemy who got some social security back pay. We made two albums and a couple of EPs on our own label. Then we formed another group in the early 80’s and did an LP and a 45 on our own label and then we lost all the money on making a 45, because you don't make money out of doing singles. So to keep going we borrowed some money off a girl who was a prostitute, a fan of ours in Berlin, she lent us a weeks wages and we put out another album on a different label and paid her back the money. Then people got a bit interested and we made records for everybody else as well. So we worked for several labels and never signed to any of them. We just did one off deals. Then in the mid 80’s I formed my own record label and did about 50 albums and released lots of un-releasable music by friends and people I met. But I refused to do CD’s so that label was stopped by the distribution people. They didn't like my attitude. In Thee Head Coats days, when we did the LP with sub pop, we were on about 20 different labels at that time, doing 45s, albums depending. We were like a sort of un-choosy prostitute. Un-choosy prostitutes don't really need to be prostitutes because they don't get anything much. A very low paid job.

 

JL: So what is the thing with doing the CDs.

 

BC: I like records because I like big pictures on the covers and there's less songs than on a CD. Plus I like the sound of records. As soon as they came out I knew that CDs were a rip off. They were charging more for a CD whilst they were costing less to produce. The labels and distribution boys said you had to go down that road and Joe Public was tricked into thinking he was smart selling off all his records for nothing and having to buy them all again on CD and then buy new equipment for listening to them again into the bargain. And everyone said they sounded better because the mugs liked to be fooled. I thought it was a complete scam and didn't want to do it. Nowadays we have our stuff available on CD but I won't release anything exclusively on CD. It has to be on vinyl as well, or at least beforehand. And the labels say we should have a bonus track on CD, but say if we have any bonus tracks it will be on the vinyl.

William and prostitute woodcut by Billy Childish

Woodcut by Billy Childish

JL: Yeah because vinyl definitely has a different sound, especially with those older types of equipment; old gramma phones and all that.

 

BC: Yes, I think if you're going to deal with the material world, you may as well do it properly and have a solid, record, not a digital silver beer mat. And if you get a scratch on a record, all you've got is a scratch. But if you get a scratch on a CD you've got a piece of junk. I think that digital storage might have its uses, we’ll wait and see in 50 years.  But mobile phones have the worst signal that has ever been in existence since the invention of the telephone. And if you hear a scratched CD stuck, you'll know what misery really is.

 

JL: Yeah, I actually do.

 

BC: Because once you lose part of the signal with digital, being binary, you've lost the whole thing, it's gone west. That's why it's junk.

 

JL: In the music industry, are you expected to make a music video to sell your records? Is that the way it works?

 

BC: Yes, I think they do that. I don't have any problem with that. If I spend the money and do it the way I want to. But if your with the big boys, they want to spend most of your budget for you and have their mate do it for a hundred thousand. The same goes with the recording and producers.

JL; Is that because they want a label type of person with a brand name directing it?

 

BC: No, it's because they want to have their ego stamp on things. Because they want to pretend to be creative as well. So they like to make all the decisions. It gives them an excuse for paying themselves so much money. They figure that they better have an opinion, regardless if they've got one or not.

 

JL: I mean, it's part of the manufacturing, marketing and merchandising?

 

BC: I suppose that's one way they can make an excuse for it.

 

JL: Before all these music shows and MTV, it was just like LPs and 45s unless you've got something on TV.

 

BC: I think the Beatles started doing it first. They were a bit busy so they thought they would make a film instead, but of course Beatles were quite a powerful group. and could make a lot of their own decisions about how it was done. Which is why their earlier films are slightly more interesting than other promotional films.

 

JL; So that's where it came out of then, like Help and all that?

 

BC: No, they made a film, a promotional film. I think it was for Strawberry Fields. I think they couldn't make it to Top of The Pops, or something, so they made a film instead. I think that's where that sort of thing grew from.

Billy Childish

Woodcut by Billy Childish

JL: Oh yeah, Top of The Pops, forgot all about that. Is that still going on over there?

 

BC: I think they stopped it last year.

 

JL: They did?

 

BC: Yeah, they'll revive it when the price is right.

 

JL: How difficult is it for a new band to break into the mainstream music industry in London?

 

BC: I'm not sure, I’ve got no idea. I’ve never tried. I'm sure there's ways and means of doing it, if you look into it. I suppose it's a little bit of luck. I really don't know. It’s not something that has ever interested me so I've never bothered finding out. I don't meet anybody like that. I don't go to rock and roll parties and I don't hobnob or fellate anybody, so I'm not in the possession of that information.

 

JL: So that is a serious part of it, fellatiating and going to all the fancy parties?

 

BC: It seems like a smart way to me but I don't know. I guess that's what you do, when I was in art school, didn't do any of those things either and I was certainly made aware that I wasn't one of them, because I didn't. You know, everyone wants everybody else to be the same and feel comfortable – the pack mentality, everyone's got to agree. That's the way it happens. Remember what it's like in the school playground and then you understand what it's like in business, in the world.

JL:  Yeah, like groupthink?

 

BC: And getting in with the bully, so he doesn't clobber you. But when you're in with him, you might have to fight for him sometimes.

 

JL: So the reason that you didn't get interested in this was because of the games you have to play and things you have to go through?

 

BC: It seemed boring to me. It's a natural thing for me to avoid these situations. It’s effortless for me. I don't try to be what I'm like. I never made any decisions, but some people don't believe me because that's not how they operate. Personally, I don't have any choice, I don't put any effort in. It's like growing your hair, you don't have to concentrate on it. Maybe you do in the end. Laughs.

 

JL: Yeah because it's not like some sort of inverse strategy is it?

 

BC: No because with a strategy, you would have to concentrate and you have to be on your guard and keep working at it. I don't have any problem with other people doing it or how it is, I'm just not interested myself. Again, people may think that's not the case. Which they are welcome to think.

Billy Childish

JL: Would you say it has a lot to do with freedom?

 

BC: No, it's probably the same for me as the people who are in. It's because it's comfortable. I like feeling comfortable, and I feel comfortable not doing it and uncomfortable doing it and I suppose they feel more comfortable doing it than not doing it. So maybe we are exactly the same. It's just a matter of what you feel comfortable with - what suits you. They feel comfortable and right doing that and I don't.

 

JL: You don't need it then, in any way?

 

BC: The only thing I need is some money and a little pat on the head now and then. But I don't know if I'll get that and I won't do any humiliating tricks to get it. Laughs. I'm like a sort of dog, that's not very interested in doing tricks.

 

JL: Laughs.

 

BC: But if I'm really hungry enough, I might sort of beg a little bit.

JL: In all the years you've been doing this, have you ever come across a business man and felt, hold on this person's sort of different and you thought, ok this person has a similar world view?

 

BC: No. But Steve, who I work with at the Aquarium Gallery is close. Only he’s no business person. He was a rare book dealer, a bit younger than me. He runs a little gallery in London and works with Jamie Reed and Jimmy Cauty. Jamie did all the Sex Pistols' graphics, and Jimmy Couty was in a group called KLF, which I don't know much about but he apparently burned a million pounds they'd got off some some music label and had the ashes made into a brick. Steve works with them and me and he has a lot of similar ideas to me. His tastes are quite different - I find them a bit too young and strange - but he likes my paintings and he likes me and we get on very well. Unfortunately, he's not quite a good business man as I would like. Laughs. I would love to meet a business man who I could get on with and who looked after me and did all these things so that I could earn some money now and then. Or a gallery that totally got what I was doing and believed in it. But you're probably not going to meet them, even at the parties, cause why would they be there if they think the same as you? So it depends where they turn up - if you happen to bump into them or not.

Oh Yeah by Billy Childish Live at Mondo Kim's, NYC 5/13/97

Painting by Billy Childish

 

BC: I meet people who think they think like I do, or want to pretend they think like I do, but I think they are slightly deluded and fooling themselves. I meet those fellows quite often.

 

JL: Being dishonest with themselves, unconscious, not aware of what they're doing?

 

BC: They just like the idea of certain things, but it's not how they really are. They are probably not like anything, so it's a bit like meeting some sort of chameleon. I meet people who swear that they think exactly like I do but everything they say proves that they don't. Then they want to argue with me about everything (Laughs) and tell me what I should be doing to get on in the business world and where I'm going wrong and how I should be marketing myself and ‘if I’d only change the sound of the music, or paint different pictures I could get on’.

 

My reply is ‘why would I want to change the sound of my music? Music is sound and what I'm interested in is the sound; so why would I want to change it just so I can get on?

 

So they say ‘well you know you could do this and you could do that. You would be much more popular’.

 

And I say, ‘Yeah, but I would be much more popular for doing something I don't want to do.’

 

And they say, ‘it will be the same, it just won't have the same sound. ‘

 

And these are the people who believe they are like me.

 

JL: I read something about the reason these rock star people like you is because of the uncontrollability about you; but when they get to actually meet you and hang around you, they think - hold on - this is real.  It's not a public relations campaign, a fabricated persona or a myth, we really can't control this person.

BC: It's not control. It's that they can't contain me because I'm not uncontrollable. Don’t get me wrong, I'm very easy-going, I'm very friendly and I don't go to parties and I don't get drunk, but I don't necessarily say ‘I think you're really great’.

JL: And that's what they want, the reciprocal praise thing?

BC: I don't know exactly what they do want. It's more like I'm sort of a rare butterfly that they want to pin in their book, and they think I'm all sorts of exciting things and when they meet me and realize what an average idiot I am and they sort of like get over it and move on. Laughs. It's like you know, I don't fulfill their fantasies. So they probably project a lot more onto me than I can deliver and don't actually see what I’m really like, but they were probably never really interested in that bit anyway.

Billy and Wolf

The Chatham Singers
Wolf, Julie and Billy

BC: The other day we played a gig and these three really nice girls wanted to take me home with them. They we're nice cute 20 year olds - this was last night  - and I said to my wife ‘where were they when I was 20 and lonely?"

JL: Laughs. Oh my god!

BC: And my wife, who plays in the group, asked ‘what did you say to them?’ ‘I told them I was old and smelly.’

JL: Laughs. What did they say?

BC: They denied it and told me they wanted me to come with them, they weren't vulgar and if I said come on let's go, they probably would have screamed.

BC: But the point being is, they don't see me, they don't know who I am. they would probably be shocked to know how conservative I am. They think I'm some embodiment of rock and roll, but I don't listen to music, I don't like noise and I don't go to parties and I don't suck up to famous people or hang out with famous people and I don't say the right things to them to get on in a carrier that I'm not that interested in. Because what I’m interested in is being one of these really boring artists that's interested in painting pictures. I'm one of these boring musicians who's interested in how things sound. I'm one of these boring writers whose interested in conveying something of the truth that I feel. That is not much good for the world market, or three 20 year old girls. Laughs. Because it's not containable, it's not package-able; it's real and nobody wants the real thing. They want Mother's Pride bread. I don't know what you have there, but Mother’s Pride is the whitest bread you can get. People don't want any seeds in it or anything getting caught in their teeth. You know they would break their filling on me, that's why the pop stars go off me. They think I'm like some luscious, some highly refined donut.

 

JL: Laughs.

 

BC: Whereas, I'm really some sort of grainery roll made by a bunch of hippies.

You Make Me Die (Thee Headcoats)

The Burning of the Houses of Lords and Commons
1834, Watercolour

JL: What about people not wanting to get too close to you as to not be compared. I think it was Turner who would have these exhibits and deliberately tone down his paintings because all these people around him would start getting bent out of shape when he would show his paintings next to theirs?

BC: That sounds very unlikely. Where did you hear this story?

JL: I don't know, think I read it in one of these art books I have. 

BC: It sounds like an inverted Turner story. I'll tell you the real one. Turner was a strange chap and if someone came up to him and asked for a deal on a painting, he would put the price up. If they wanted 100 Guinnes off, he’d add 100 Guinnes.

BC: Every time they asked for a discount, he put the price up.  He was quite a competitive man. When he used to show at the Royal Academy they would have a varnishing day just before the opening. But it wasn't just varnishing the paintings it was also for final re-touching. Anyway, Turner's painting hung there next to Constable's and the story goes that Tuner's painting was completely dingy and over powered. But on varnishing day, Turner came in and put one dob of red paint on a reflection, or a bouy in the water and immediately every other picture that was in the room was pushed back into the shade and Turner's was absolutely resplendent. A highly competitive individual. It seams unlikely that story you heard is the right way round. He did the total opposite by lulling them into a false sense of security (Laughter) and then wallop them.. I think it shows a good sense of humour, as well as putting the money up when people asked for a discount. That's the way I would like to be, in my little fantasy.

 

JL: Do you find that all these art worlds are competitive?

 

BC: Sounds like Turner's world would have been. I am competitive but in my own quiet way. I’m not in the art world. I don't do it in public. I'm competitive by trying to do it in private. All of those things that you mentioned in the stars signs, there's something of mine which falls in the 12th house, which makes me a bit more muted than you would suspect. I don't have to show off too much; it's a much more personal thing for me.

Self portrait by J.M.W. Turner

Painting by Billy Childish

JL: You don't have any need to do it.

 

BC: In a small group yes, but parties aren't my thing. I'm somebody that has to do things behind the scenes, in my own way. I don't need to be at the party. Which is unusual because you know there's a lot in my sign that would suggest I’d be right there. The life and soul, but I'm not.  That's not my way at all.

 

JL: So then the process to you is what it's all about; creativity, ideas, executing the work. Is that where you get most of the pleasure and satisfaction from rather than all the other stuff?

 

BC: I like a bit of flattery and I like being adored by a few people, but not too many at once. Laughs.

 

JL: Laughs.

 

BC: The best thing about painting is painting.

 

JL: Just doing it?

 

BC: Yeah,  it's mud pies. I like paint, because it’s colourful and gooey and then you can try and do stuff with it. For me, it's just natural. I like trying to get the mind out of the way and letting the painting do what it wants. I try not to get over involved. It goes through my mold but I try and let it squidge out at the edges now and then.

 

JL; Would you say you've changed a lot from when you first started out in the music world from all of this experience you have gathered?

BC: Yes, I think stopping drinking when I was 32, 33 changed a lot. That's when I started to grow myself up and started taking responsibility for myself. Now I feel more like I did when I was in my pre-teens. I think that's what growing up is - getting over your teenage years and returning to something like your 10 year old self. I've done a bit of a full circle.

JL: Would you say that over all, people misunderstand you?

BC: Well, people are always shocked how nice I am when they meet me, so lets say they got a strange idea of what they consider my public persona. I get a lot of bad press and people say what a meanie I am and how scary I am and what a misogynist I am, and whatever they fancy really. I’ve done some bad things in my life and I’ve done some good things in my life. I’m probably not like what people think I'm like, no. I'm probably a lot different.

JL: So then it's the press that's created a lot of this perception. I mean it does look skewed somehow.

BC: Of course it's skewed. I mean like if you recognize 25 percent of yourself in any article you read then your doing well. (laughs)

 
www.billychildish.com
 
www.theaquariumonline.co.uk

Billy Childish