John LeKay: What was
it like growing up with a famous name like Geronimo?
Harlyn Geronimo:
Well, you know, I live way out in the mountains. I grew up in the
forest, on the ranch. Going from the ranch and also to the school, I
wasn't in really that much contact with the public. But, as I grew
older, when I was in the military back in the late 60s; I served
two tours and then after that I came home. I went to college for
several years. Then after college submitted my name for the tribal
council. That was 1980. I served in the political area a good
number of years up to probably 2000. Then I retired from the tribal
council, but during that time, when I was an elected official, I had
been in the public eye for a number of times, starting in the early
80s regarding different issues.
John LeKay: Mostly in
New Mexico?
Harlyn Geronimo: Yes,
out here in New Mexico. That's when I started to get involved with
some very serious issues here on the reservation; like the tribal
budget that was never released to the tribal members and other
issues that were detrimental to the tribe.
Then when the media
came around they wanted to do interviews and so on. At that
time another big issue came up regarding my great grandfather's
remains that were supposedly stolen from the burial plot in Fort
Sills, Oklahoma by the late Bush's; not the late Bush, but George
W. Bush's, the president's great grandfather back in 1912. That
issue came up and soon the media started coming around. After that,
it went into a routine - wherever I went, people started asking me
questions about my great grandfather and the family back then. So,
it was very political at the time, where it was covered constantly.
Chief Geronimoby Edward R Curtis
Harlyn
Geronimo speaking
The media
kept on going and then I started doing interviews with many
radio stations and TV stations. You know it just grew to be a
big issue at the time. And now. I've been involved with the
media for over 20 years where I feel comfortable. I've been
on CNN, Washington Post, New Mexico magazine, Outsight
magazine. Then your magazine. The BBC from Europe.
JL: The BBC
too?
Harlyn
Geronimo: Yep. USA Today and also the media from Japan. For
the last 6 months I've been involved with about 30 different
medias. Constantly on the radio stations. The Native radio
stations. The Native newspapers. It got to a point where
they called me on a regular basis.
I got to know
some of these people really well. But now, the big issue has
surfaced again. Regarding my great grandfather's remains.
And I got several big attorneys working with me.
It seems
like the media have gotten hold of this and now it's a big issue. Not only that, but now we are trying
to move his remains back to the Gila wilderness. The west fork and the east fork in the Gila where he
was born. So that's another big issue. So when you ask, how
I felt about being the grandson of a great chief, I feel
comfortable, with the media; with different articles,
magazines, newspapers. I just tell the the truth. Just
like for myself. I am the great grandson of the Great Chief,
who was incarcerated in St. Augustine's Florida back in
1887. You know, the government sent my great grandfather,
Kate and their daughter back to the land in Mescalero. They
were lucky to be sent back, so they didn't endure all that
hardship, with 500 of what the other Chiricahua went
through.
You know,
that when they came back to Mescalero. My grandmother Lana
married another Chiricahua Apache and they had two sons, and
one of them was my father. Percy is the brother and Junito
is my father. He was born in 1916 in Mescalero and then 3
years later my grandmother's mother died from influenza. You know, there was a big outbreak here, the
South West of the United States.
Harlyn Geronimo:
1918, but the great grandmother Kate lived till she was close to 90,
she died in 1954 here in Mescalero, the wife of Geronimo. While I
was growing up my mother used to go over and visit her and there is
where I picked up a lot of information; the history - the oral
history that's not written. We are presently working on a book.
With a publisher. That's in the works right now. A lot of the
information I received has never been published. This is an area
where we will be working on. Also, the same people are making a
documentary about me, here in Mescalero. It's going to end up in
Mongolia. They have been asking me for a year and a half and I
finally decided to do it.
JL: I want to go back
to what you said earlier for a second and ask you some questions
about when you first found out about the desecration of your great
grandfather's grave. So I make sure I get my history right, was that
in the early 1980s?
Harlyn Geronimo:
Yes.1983
JL: Was
that through the man named Ned Anderson?
Harlyn
Geronimo: Yes.
JL: Is it
true this man Ned met with George W. Bush's brother,
Jonathon Bush, in New York?
Harlyn
Geronimo: Yes.
JL: And
then he, I mean, Jonathan Bush, presented Ned Anderson
with a display case with a child's remains in it?
Harlyn
Geronimo: Yes.
Jonathon
Bush
Skull and
Bones Society. Yale University Connecticut. (George
Herbert Walker Bush is standing left of clock)
JL: Then Ned
Anderson refused to accept what was in this display case,
because he said it belonged to a small child. A child's
skull?
Harlyn
Geronimo; That's right. You see the situation here is, their
ancestry. You know, they are not direct descendants like me
and my family. I don't mind that people are speaking out on
the issue itself, but if you look at the whole situation,
it's a family affair.
JL: With the
Bush family you mean?
Harlyn
Geronimo; Yes. You see just like they wanted to move the
remains to Arizona. He wasn't born in Arizona. He was born
in New Mexico. At that time, back around early 1800s, this
whole area was Arizona territory.
These people think
that just because New Mexico hadn't come into the area at the time,
they claim that Geronimo belongs in Arizona. But even New Mexico was
called Arizona territory at that time. So now you know it became a
state in 1912. If you look at it, pinpoint the birth place - it's
in the Gila wilderness, like I said - you know, where the forks
meet. That's where he was born. That's where we want to take the
remains for burial. Repatriation. But the people don't
understand the whole issue. You know this is a family affair.
JL: Yes.
Harlyn Geronimo; You
know and I wish they could stand back and look at the whole thing in
perspective.
JL: Have you or your
friends been in contact with the Bush family directly to try and
resolve this problem? Figure something out?
Harlyn Geronimo; Well
with the situation presently, I'm getting a group of professionals
together. You know anthropologists, archeologists, forensic
analysts. People, anybody that deals with burial sites, excavation
and in that area. Once I get everything together, even attorneys.
JL: Yes.
Harlyn Geronimo; We
are going to go and do the excavation and check out the burial
sites. Presently I'm in contact with several big people here in the
United States. People from Hollywood, who want to help out. Some big
attorneys from the north. Also from the East Coast. So it's falling
into place. It takes time, it doesn't happen over night.
And then a group of
people from this area also contacted me. We are dealing with Billy
The Kid's remains.
JL; You mean Billy
The Kid, the outlaw?
Harlyn Geronimo; Yes.
We are going into other areas, other regions. Check out the
different remains. People were claiming it was Billy The Kid. They
have people that are experts in this area and they asked me if we
would get involved. I told them just to hold on, until we get
organized. That's where it's at presently.
Billy The
Kid
Chief Geronimo
JL: I understand
that to desecrate the remains of someone like this, a medicine man,
is very bad luck. It can have very negative consequences for the
person and their family. Is that true?
Harlyn Geronimo;
That's true. Part of it. The spirits are awake and that can be very
detrimental.
JL: Is it true that
in order to give the spirits rest, they have to make peace and put
the remains back in the right place. Is that correct?
Harlyn Geronimo; Yes,
also you know, it takes spirituality, through prayers. That's how
you revitalize the spirits and when you do that, you know, that gets
very, very, very, serious. That's when, you know somebody is going
to get hurt.
You know, my great
grandmother Kate Geronimo, the wife of Geronimo. When I was growing
up, here in Mescalero, here in the forest where we used to live, she
blessed me one evening to carry on the spiritual aspects.
And presently a lot of people don't understand that, and they don't
know what that means, and that you become a medicine man. For
instance, that was given to me through my great grandmother. What do
you call that. 911.
JL: 911. Yes.
Harlyn Geronimo: That
morning of 911 about two o clock, I was in a deep sleep, and then I
had this dream. All the buildings, the debris was falling around me.
Thick with flying dirt and I was inside it and I was thinking what
is this all about and I was running out of there. And then it was so
frightening it woke me up. I woke my wife up and I told her about
this dream and we did a little prayer in Apache and we went back to
sleep. That was 8 o'clock in the morning. I woke up and turned the
TV on and I saw the jetliner hitting the twin tower and after that
it came down several minutes later. Then I see the debris flying all
over the place and I told my wife, that's what I saw and what I was
dreaming about. I was actually in that, in my dream. That took
place early, how many hours before?
JL:. 6 hours.
Harlyn Geronimo: Yes.
JL: Is Ned
Anderson an Apache man or an American person?
Harlyn
Geronimo: I think he is from the White Mountain Apache
tribe.
JL: Is he
still working on this case?
Harlyn
Geronimo: I don't think so. I haven't heard anything from
the tribe in Arizona.
JL: So, who
initiated this investigation with Ned Anderson? Was that
you, or did he start this?
Harlyn
Geronimo: He did. He was with about three other people.
He was President of the White Mountain Apache tribe at
that time.
JL: So then
he did this on his own initiative?
Harlyn
Geronimo: Yes.
JL:
Then
he contacted you later?
White
mountain
Chief Geronimo
Harlyn
Geronimo: No, you see what happened is they just assumed
any Apache that's famous out there, would be of their
ancestry. So they went ahead and started working in the
issue at the time. But they never contacted the direct
descendants like myself. We heard about it in the
newspaper. That's when we confronted the issue with the
media.
JL; So, when
this Ned Anderson had the meeting with Jonathon Bush,
the president's uncle, you weren't aware of what was
going on at this meeting?
Harlyn
Geronimo: No. We didn't know anything until probably six
months later. And when we found out, we told the
Associated Press at the time that this is a family
affair. We would like for Ned Anderson and his tribe to
back off and not to get into any family affairs, regarding
the burial or the missing skull at that time.
JL; So, then
it was at that point when you took over?
Harlyn
Geronimo: Well, no we didn't. I didn't. I just made a
statement that we are putting an injunction if they
don't leave the issue alone at that time. And after that
we didn't hear anything from them?
JL: So why
do you think they (Ned Anderson) raised that issue to
begin with?
Harlyn
Geronimo: At that time, I recall, I think their motive
was to try to get tourist attraction in the area.
JL: Oh, ok,
so it was for themselves, for publicity etc?
Harlyn
Geronimo: Yes.
JL: So, your
reasons for telling them to back off and for issuing the
injunction, was because you didn't want to have this
made public?
Harlyn
Geronimo: It was already made public, but we told them
this is a family affair, how would you like it if we
went over to your cemetery and tried to get involved
with
one of your deceased relatives.
JL: At what
point then did you decide to actually take some
kind of action regarding this?
Harlyn
Geronimo: After they kept mentioning it and they
responded at that time, that "he is our leader, he is
our chief, we have every right to the grave site. We
have the right to retrieve the bones and the skull that
were taken", that's what he indicated at that time.
But
we told him we are going to have to file an injunction
on your tribe and also the governor of Babbitt at that
time. We made a statement with the Associated Press
and after that we did not hear anything more.
JL:
What
about the issue with Yale, do you know if anyone ever
contacted Yale University in Connecticut?
Harlyn
Geronimo: They mentioned they did but they were given
the smaller skull at that time. It was too small, they
said it was a child's skull.
JL: It
sounds very strange that they would have this meeting
with a Child's skull, behind your back. I mean it's
bizarre.
Harlyn
Geronimo: That's true.
Geronimo
and family
Skull and Bones Tomb,
Yale University
JL: I read a
little bit about this Native American Graves Protection
and Repatriation Act. It says that it's a violation of
law for any organization that receives funding from the
government to acquire or to collect human remains or
funerary objects, sacred objects, and objects of
cultural patrimony. Have you
ever contacted NAGPRA , Native American Graves
Protection and Repatriation acts about this recently?
Harlyn
Geronimo: Well, I had written letters to Senator
Bingaman and asked him to get all the information on
the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation
Act and he did. He got in contact with the Bureau of
Indian Affairs up in Washington and they got me copies
of it. And we went over that with my attorneys.
JL: So, have
they determined that they violated this law, by keeping
this, since Yale University I believe does get funding
from the government. But, this society they have, the
Scull and Bones Society, claims that they are separate from
Yale University.
Harlyn
Geronimo: Yes that's what they mentioned.
JL: So did
they use this so called "Yale Skull and Bones Separation
Society" as
an excuse in some way? I mean this sounds like a ploy.
Harlyn
Geronimo: I think they did use it as an excuse.
JL: When we
talked about this earlier, I think you said it's taboo
for the Apache to talk about these issues. Is this one
of the major reasons why you didn't really want to
address this?
Harlyn
Geronimo: Yes, that was one of my big concerns at the
time, but we thought about it and there's no other way
around it. You just have to mention it and discuss the
issue, but we usually have a prayer session before we
get into this area.
JL: Is it
more difficult to discuss this since one of the Bush
family members also happens to be the President of the United
States? Does
that make it even more awkward?
Harlyn
Geronimo: Yes, but if you look at the political
situation, democrats are now in charge, so I think this
is a good opportunity to go after it.
President George Bush
(Skull and Bones member)
Prescott
Bush with Richard Nixon
JL: What are
your feelings about this family since it wasn't this
president who did this. I mean, it was his great
grandfather Prescott that was actually involved in this
situation. Do you feel he has some kind of
responsibility since it was his great grandfather, that
he owes it to you to resolve this problem?
Harlyn
Geronimo: Yes, also you have to understand the President
attended Yale and I'm pretty sure he had seen the skull,
so he is involved in this and so are the other alumni from
that society. You could say they are accessory
to the fact. Yes they are a part of it, they have seen
the skull, they are all involved in it.
JL: So every
single one of these people who have seen it, witnessed
it, every single one of them is responsible for
returning it?
Harlyn
Geronimo: Yes.
JL: Ok, did
you find a forensics specialist, so if they did want to
return it, you have someone in place to examine it, to
make sure they are giving you the right one?
Harlyn
Geronimo: Well, right now I've got another person that
is working in that area and he's contacted several here
in New Mexico. And also we are setting up a secondary
field office. We have other attorneys on board
for the forensic pathology. And he is working on this
diligently to get them aboard right now.
JL: Is the
current President aware of your situation with this?
Harlyn
Geronimo: Well, remember last June when I made a
statement on CNN twice.
JL: Yes, I
have the video tape online.
Harlyn
Geronimo: And the statement I made was directed at
President George W. Bush.
JL: Did he
respond to you?
Harlyn
Geronimo: No.
JL: Nothing?
Harlyn
Geronimo: No nothing.
JL: Have you
written him yourself, a letter?
Harlyn
Geronimo Well, at that time when I made my
statement there was maybe about a hundred media people.
It's all written down what I said.
Harlyn
Geronimo
JL: He got the message.
Harlyn Geronimo: He should have gotten the message because
it was on CNN, Washington Post, the big media.
JL: What
about the President of Yale University, has anyone asked
him to intervene in this situation?
Harlyn
Geronimo: Well ,at that time, the question was asked by
anther person, I think it was the historian who had the
letter from the archives. I think he mentioned it. Yale
mentioned that it's not up to them to respond to that
since it wasn't in their hands. They don't have any
authority to get involved in the issue because it's a
separate society, the Scull and Bones they mentioned.
JL: What do
you think about that?
Harlyn
Geronimo: Well, from my perspective, I believe that it's
on Yale's campus and they receive funding from the
government, I believe they are a part of the situation.
They should actually get involved and try to return the
scull. Or, just do an investigation, but
they didn't do anything.
Yale
University, Connecticut. Home of the Skull and Bones
Society.
JL: I also
read that the President of Yale is also a member
of this Skull and Bones Society. Do you think that has
something to do with it?
Harlyn
Geronimo: Yes, that's true, they do, they are all
involved in it. The University itself, but here again
they mention that it's not in their hands so they can't
say anything.
JL: And what
do you believe is the reason that they have not returned
it at this point after all these years?
Harlyn
Geronimo: I think it's going to be a big embarrassment on
their part in it. This is going to reflect back on the
President of the United States and its not going to look
too good. His popularity ratings are going to go way
down. His relatives are not going to win any more
elections, this is the situation why he doesn't want
to get involved in it. He doesn't even want to touch the
subject.
JL: Do you
feel there's a way to solve this problem where it
wouldn't be embarrassing for him, where it could help him
in a way by doing the right thing? Is there a way for
him to save face?
Harlyn
Geronimo: I'm pretty sure he thought about that you
know, he's got authority to enforce the law, to do an
investigation and if the skull is taken and also the
remains he can say we've got it here, we would like to
return this. Unfortunately, this occurred a hundred years
ago and we would like to forget about the misdeed that
took place at that time, we should all come together and
complete the journey of doing the re-burial. But, I don't
think he is going to say that.
JL: What
would you say are the other reasons he should do the
right thing, from your perspective?
Harlyn
Geronimo: I think it's only right you know, because of
all the injustices the Chirichaua prisoners of war went
through, for a good 28 years. They should
commemorate the suffering this group went through, this
tribe went through. And do the appropriate thing and
maybe settle our differences. You know, recognize our
descendents and suffering our ancestors went through. He
should use this as an opportunity to recognize the
Native American people and all of the injustices and
suffering that they went through.
JL: Do you
think this injustice is not just for the Apache,
but it speaks to all the Native American peoples from
every tribe?
Harlyn
Geronimo: Yes, all the peoples from the tribes here in
North America.
JL: What can
people out there do to help?
Harlyn
Geronimo: I thought about that and I would appreciate it
if people would contact the congressmen in their
districts and write letters to them indicating that they
are in support of the Geronimo families' repatriation of
the remains to their homelands.
