PART 1
PART 2
PART 3
PART 4
PART 5
 
 

HARLYN GERONIMO

PART 7

  
PART 6
PART 7
 
 

 

JL: Did your great grandfather have a vision when he was younger, that bullets couldn't kill him?

Harlyn Geronimo: He did. He had that vision several times. He picked up the information from the creator mentally, through, like I guess you could say, a dream back then. When he went to the sacred mountains he was actually told that he was not going to die until he became very old.

JL: Wasn't he wounded, shot with bullets at least 6 times or more?

Harlyn Geronimo:  More, maybe over 30 times.

JL:  Did he have any knife wounds or anything like that?

Harlyn Geronimo:  He had a lot of knife wounds, because they were very superbly trained in hand to hand combat at the time. That was one of the areas where they were very knowledgeable in case they ran out of ammunition in a major battle. They didn't just retreat, they would go in and fight hand to hand in combat with whatever weapon they had at the time; like a spare or a knife, even a tomahawk. They were trained over a good many years to become a warrior. This art of warfare.
An Apache knife taken from an indian south of the Mexican border in the 1880's

JL: Did they make their weapons themselves, the spears and the knives?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes they did.

JL: Was that a part of the training as well?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes part of the training.  It took them months to master the art of hand to hand combat, spear fighting and using the knife as a weapon also. They were out there in the forest training, training, training day after day. Week after week, months and goes into years until the master approved of their training . Then they would go into actual combat that was picked at the time. Which ever side the territory needed to be defended from outside intrusion.

They actually had a small band, like a group of maybe 10 or even smaller, 6 at a time, that actually traveled into the territory where they needed to defend their homelands. They actually attacked these settlements but at the same time, not only one small band or group, but this is over 5 or 6 different small groups that were also sent out into these areas.

 

JL: S.M Barrett, who wrote the book about Geronimo, when he asked to interview your great grandfather was first turned down by the army. Somebody said to him, speaking of your great grandfather, "the old Apache deserves to be hanged, not to be spoiled with the attention of civilians".

Did he ever speak of any of these things?

Harlyn Geronimo: I was told that a lot of this information was taken out of context because it was embarrassing to the US government. Just like for instance the annihilation of maybe a whole band of Apache by the US government that were actually wiped out, men, women and children.

 

Small pox blanket bio-warfare

 

Things of this nature were taken out. Also, you know the killings of little girls and little boys and babies by the military. Not only that, but they were actually using poison.  For instance, when they made peace with the Apaches, they promised them gifts and gave them food rations, then in return they poisoned the rations and tried to wipe out the whole band of Apaches. This is the practice that they used to eliminate the Apache tribes here in the south west, but that was constantly enforced and practiced by the military. Not only that, but it was an embarrassment to the US government because they never captured Geronimo. They had several thousand troops here in the south west looking for him, but they could not keep up with him.

 

 

JL:  There's a chapter in the book where he talks about a serpent that took refuge in a mountain cliff in Arizona and that the serpent's eyes changed to a brilliant stone, that can be seen in the rock today.  Where did this story come from?

Harlyn Geronimo: That's the story of the true Apache boys. It started when the Apache God Usen created the Apaches.  It started with that. It's a long story, but I'll try to make the story short. When Usen first took the Apache maiden out of the water, I was told that this was somewhere around Santiago, out in the ocean. She was submerged and the only thing you could see was the feather that was pinned to her hair.  What happened is Usen gradually pulled her out by the feather, from the ocean and brought her to the shore with that feather . When she got out of the water, she was a young woman, painted white and had a pure clean buckskin on. When he brought her to the shore, he told her you are going to give birth to two children. Then he explained to the white painted woman at the time. She was very holy, and she had all the holiness that the creator gave her at that time. She could actually walk on water, did things that was impossible at that time. For instance if the boys were hungry, she gave birth to two boys, she would give them food from out of her hand. This would continue until the boys got up to age 12, then she told them that there's a monster out there that will kill you if you are not observing the training that I am giving you. So at the time, this is the monster that you are talking about.

JL: Right.

Harlyn Geronimo: At that time, there was also good and evil which was evident to our people because Usen did this intentionally. So that they can understand the surroundings. Also how to survive once they leave on a long journey later in life  But this monster was a part of creation; it was meant for the tribes' strict teaching of the good and the bad, at that time. In a way, where the monster is created to actually stalk the two boys and to survive in this environment was very unpredictable. This is the monster you are talking about, but later on, one of them will kill the monster. Then one of them will be killed also. The thing about this story is from my perspective, traditionally, the woman folk were supposed to tell it. I'm kind of just touching a little on it because it's very sacred, because of the white painted woman who was one of the very spiritual characters in traditional religious ceremonies. I'm not really supposed to talk about it.

JL:Ok

Harlyn Geronimo: The woman folks tell the whole story.

JL; They can talk about it?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes they can talk about it. My situation, I know the story itself but forbidden.

JL: I understand.

Harlyn Geronimo: Because in our tradition, this information and this stipulation that is attached to it, an older female can tell it. I was told that she can hear you, she is invisible, but she can hear you, by telling the story I can be violating the rules that were set down.

JL: So when your great-grandfather told the story in the book, was that just a part of the story then?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes that was just a part.

JL: Like what you just told me.

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes. He knew all of it, but it was forbidden to tell it even though he was a medicine man.

JL: Like the same thing with you?

Harlyn Geronimo:  Yes, I don't really want to go into detail, because it's forbidden.

JL: Ok. Geronimo also talks about how his mother taught him about religion and how Usen does not care for the petty quarrels of men. In your culture or your religion, if you have an argument with someone, your relative or your friend for example; were you allowed to take revenge on this person or was that forbidden?

Harlyn Geronimo: It's banned because within the tribe, the way it's structured, anybody who is not a part of the tribe is looked down on this individual as an enemy back then. So in order for the Apaches to survive back then, they were given special powers, to deal with the non-tribal members. I guess you could say at the time, the immigrants came to this place, to take the territory. If they were to fight the Apaches, the Apaches would retaliate by using their powers to help them fight to be strong, to be protected by a sort of an invisible shield.

JL: Like spiritual powers?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, these powers can actually be used in a way to protect them. To be better fighters also. That's one reason we are not allowed to fight internally, because that power is still here and if you do that it can actually destroy you.

 

 

JL: So, does everybody know about these powers, even the Apaches who are around today?

Harlyn Geronimo:  Yes, well a lot of the older people, people that come from traditional families that still practice the religion. They are aware of it and in tune also, but not everybody has the spiritual powers.  Here again, you have to be careful with who you get upset, maybe offend.

JL: Is this similar to the medicine powers that you have or is it different?

Harlyn Geronimo: The same. You also have to be careful not to do things that will harm you later on.

JL: We talked about some of the virtues earlier like honesty, what about compassion love etc. How important were these  virtues to the Apache?

Harlyn Geronimo: They were very important. Just like I told you, it all leads back to survival because back then your are not supposed to lie, or give the wrong message to take to the next band, a hundred miles way.  It has to be the same information that was given to you word by word. Because if you change it or lie, you are going to lose a whole band consisting of many, 50 people, and then compassion is also a good part of it. You have to be kind and teach kindness to the young kids that are growing up. The young folks, so back then they could become a warrior or a woman warrior, or a spiritual leader within the tribe. Just like we are not supposed to be mean to animals. Like the dog or the horse, we have to treat them with a lot of respect. 

JL:   Does this also apply to nature and wild life?

Harlyn Geronimo: The wild life we actually talk to it when we go into the mountains. If we need a white tailed deer for food, we don't go out there and kill as many as we can,. we only take one that will sustain the human body for a good number of days. We don't try to disturb the land, we try to keep it as natural as it is, because Usen gave the land to us and there was a stipulation in there that he mentioned that it was given to you and you are supposed to keep it as natural as it is because of the sacredness that's involved and also the food that sustains the tribes, not only that but also the herbal medicines. Once you disturb it, you are destroying your livelihood. You are going to destroy your future. So presently, if you look at it, the global warming, that's what it's leading to and this is the information that was given to the tribe by our creator, our God.

JL: Does that also mean cutting down trees unnecessarily?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, unnecessarily, for no reason. Or for just monetary purposes.

JL: Or mining to dig up the earth?

Harlyn Geronimo: To dig up the earth and destroy the vegetation, the surface water, the rivers. It's all destroying mother earth itself. That was against the tradition.

JL: Creating dams?

Harlyn Geronimo: Creating dams and not only that, but polluting the environment, with nuclear waste, the smog coming from different factories. This was all information that was part of our tradition.

 

 
 

Robert McGee, scalped by Plains Indians

  

JL: After his wife and children were murdered by the Mexicans; at the first battle when he took revenge on the Mexicans, it says that he gave orders for the scalping of the Mexicans. Is this correct?  Would he have given such orders?

Harlyn Geronimo: No, that was against tradition. I think that was misinterpreted at the time. I think Daklugie did that intentionally.

JL:  It says in the book that the Mexican government offered rewards for the Apache scalps: 100 dollars for a warrior, 50 dollars for a woman and 25 for a child. Was this true?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes that was true.  That was true because at the time, in order to conquer this area (the land from the Apaches), they had to resort to drastic measures of this sort. If not, they are not going to accomplish their goals. So this took them a good four hundred years, but nothing was accomplished.

JL: It sounds like a lot of money at the time. I mean a hundred dollars was quite a lot back then?

Harlyn Geronimo: It was a lot of money.

JL: There is another story in the book about a woman called Kohilee who was attacked by a grizzly bear and was almost scalped and how she was healed with the medicine and herbs. I read somewhere that the Spanish were the first people to do scalping, is this true?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, that's true, the apaches never did that. You have probably heard about the honor system within the Apache warrior society.

JL; Yes.

Harlyn Geronimo: That was forbidden because we are not supposed to deal with any dead parts of the human body, because if you do that you are actually keeping the sprits from actually leaving the body itself.

 

JL: Ok, I just wanted to make sure about scalping. I don't know where I read it years ago, but it stayed in my mind all this time that it was either the US, European settlers, British, French or Spanish that started the scalping. Just wanted to clear it up because people over here say it was the other way around.

Harlyn Geronimo: You know, it's just like I told you.  For instance, if a relative died you are not supposed to keep the relative's belongings and to make sure that the dwelling, the home site, where he was staying at was very clean and washed, so that there are no traces of the person. I guess you could say soul, because in our tradition this is leading back to taking the scalp from the body which is strictly prohibited, because once the person is dead, they don't touch it, they don't take anything that belongs to that person.

Here again, that was a part of the tradition that a lot of the writers and the authors had written about the Apaches. Then it became that they were actually scalpers and adversaries. It's not true.

JL:  Was there such a thing as the scalp dance?

Harlyn Geronimo: No, the Apache don't practice that. It was brought here by the Mexicans and the US Cavalry.

JL:  So where it says in the book that they did a scalp dance, you're saying that it is all false?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes. No it's not true. Because anything that dealt with the spirit, they don't bother it. Just like after death.

 

Scalp dance by George Catlin
 

  
 

JL: What would be the punishment if a member of the tribe, back then, broke the law or did some kind of evil crime?

Harlyn Geronimo: Back then the chiefs in the circle of warriors would take their different seats within that group.  It's sort of like a hierarchy and it's brought up by the chiefs and he determines what punishment that person gets. Then it's mutually agreed by the warrior society there. It's set up like that.

JL; It also mentioned that they did not have prisons back then, but if someone did something wrong they would be banished from the tribe.  Is this true?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes.

JL; What would happen then to these banished people?

Harlyn Geronimo: It was pretty severe.  They would usually banish them completely from the tribe and after that they would not be allowed back as a member of the band or tribe.

For instance if they were unable to work or provide for their family, or had committed a murder within the tribe. Something of that nature, something very severe. This was back then about 150 years ago. Nowadays in our society, it's completely different. The system has changed a lot.

 JL: When somebody died, was it customary to bury the person or to cremate them?

Harlyn Geronimo: Back then usually they had a designated cave that they would put the remains in and their belongings, like if he had a horse, they would kill the horse, they say he would be riding the horse into heaven. But all the belongings would usefully go into the cave.

JL: The cave would be in the mountains somewhere?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes. That's close to their home range. For instance, if they were out there migrating they would burn all their belongings.

JL: What was the reason behind not keeping the property and belongings of the deceased relative?

Harlyn Geronimo: Because if they do keep any of that person's remains, they would keep the spirit here. In our tradition, the sprit would travel into heaven; the soul itself. If you keep some of the possessions that the person had over the years, it's usually discarded. It wouldn't be peaceful within the family also and they wouldn't call the persons name after that, or keep their relative's belongings for that reason.

JL: Would they burn the property?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, if there was a lot of property that was left over, they would burn it.

JL: What about today, is that tradition still the same or has it changed?

Harlyn Geronimo: Well, the tradition is still here.  We have to clean the whole house out completely. We paint the house and get rid of all the furniture that was around when the person was living and discard it and the family has to buy new furniture.

JL: That's interesting; new furniture and clothing and everything else as well?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, the clothing and everything, because if not, you can keep the spirits here and they will be just around you know.

JL: What about photographs?

Harlyn Geronimo: Well photographs are something that is completely different. Those we can keep. You can't keep them opened at the time that it occurred. You have to put them away for maybe a year or so. Sometimes, two or three years.

JL: So that nobody can see them?

Harlyn Geronimo: The reason being that later on, maybe six months or even later it's still around, the spirit will be still here. Sometimes it will take the person, whatever it is, it is messing with what it is, which is left behind.

JL: On another subject, it says Geronimo's first wife Alope, drew many pictures on the walls of the tipi. Did she make the pictures on the buckskin for decoration or was it for some other reason?

Harlyn Geronimo:  Usually it tells a story, that is handed down. It's usually drawn on the inside of the tipi. It's sort of teaching to the little kids the art, sitting around the camp fire at night; what actually happened or occurred. If they had moved from one site to another site.

JL: So its like the history at the time?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes.

JL; In pictures?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes.

JL:  At that time did they have a system of a written language where they would use letters, a hundred years ago or when ever it was?

Harlyn Geronimo: Usually it's all oral history and some of it would be in drawings, on the buckskins of the history itself.

JL:  So through history and the oral history, that's how they kept records?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, and then for instance, here in New Mexico some of these sacred sites have drawings on the canyon walls. Those are our history of the people that were there originally like the Apaches. Just like for instance the word God, you see that where there are Apache sites or the lightening for instance.

JL: Did your great-grandmother ever write anything down on paper or did her descendants write anything down for you as well?

Harlyn Geronimo: Most of the information that I received was oral history. She knew how to write, but she didn't want to record any of the information that was very valuable to her on paper because other people could get a hold of it. So she told us what had occurred back in those days. What had occurred here in the south west. The big events; things like that.

JL: When you say that the information was very valuable and she didn't want to record it, are you talking about the secret medicine information?

Harlyn Geronimo:  Yes.

 JL: When the Spanish first came over to this country, do you know if they captured many of the Apache and put them into slavery?

Harlyn Geronimo: They did. You know a lot of them were actually killed during the confinement and a lot of them escaped back to their place of birth, their home land.

JL: Is that the reason why the Apache became warriors in the first place? Because they were concerned about the slave hunting expeditions of the Mexicans?  Was it a way for them to defend themselves?

Harlyn Geronimo: Well you know, the Chirichaua Apache tribe have always been sort of a militant style of society. They have always trained to be defenders of the home; to be homeland, their families their freedom. But it is similar to the way the military is set up here in the United States . Where you have to take part in the military training, the warriors training at that time.

JL: Do you know if the US took any Apaches for slaves to use elsewhere?

Harlyn Geronimo: The US government?

JL: Or if the US people took any Apaches to use as slaves, to use for themselves on their businesses, plantations etc?

Harlyn Geronimo: Usually, you know when they captured back then they usually shot them. They would get the information from the warrior or whoever it was and after that they would be shot.

 JL: When the Apache captured the Mexicans, how would the Mexican men be treated?

Harlyn Geronimo: As far as I can remember, from the information that was given to me, the Apache tribes had salves al the time. So any time they captured the enemy, they used them as slaves, but not the same conditions that the black slaves were used by white people back them. The slaves weren't really treated badly.  They were put out in the fields to work in the gardens planting, or cutting fire wood, skinning deer or buffalo that was brought in. Usually manual labor, but not something that would put them under real strenuous conditions.

They were treated with respect.

JL: So they weren't put into any kind of prison or something like that?

Harlyn Geronimo: No.

JL: What about the Mexican women and children that were captured? 

Harlyn Geronimo: They were treated a little differently. The woman folks were made to cook and do the household chores and the kids were free to do whatever as long as there was adult supervision, but they were usually adopted into the tribe.

JL: What about the women, did the Apaches marry the Mexican women that were captured?

Harlyn Geronimo: Well it was up to the woman.  In several cases they married into the tribe. I was told that. There was also a French man that was captured and later on was a part of the tribe and had kids with the tribe that was back in the 1800s.

JL: Do you know his name?

Harlyn Geronimo: No, I don't remember . After so many years the information is lost. If you look closely at some of the young woman here in the tribe. Some of them will have dark brown hair and I was thinking that their descendants are you know. Usually the Apache woman have pitch black hair.

JL; Really black?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes. Once in a while you will see one with dark brown hair and I assume some of these tribal members are descendants of maybe, you know.

 JL: Ok.  How many wives could an Apache have at that time?

Harlyn Geronimo: As many as he could support.

JL: Really, so there were no rules regarding that?

Harlyn Geronimo: There was rules, as long as you could support them, like for instance if you had three wives, you would have to support all three and all the kids.

JL: At that time, did the Apache make any kind of alcohol?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes they did, they made one type that is made from the corn itself. They called it back then Indi-corn. It originated here in the south west, the corn itself, but they usually put the Indi-corn through fermentation and all that. It meant so much percent alcohol but it doesn't have enough to get you drunk but enough to make you feel good.

JL: Do they still make that now, from the same recipe?

 Harlyn Geronimo: Some people do mainly for religious purposes.

JL: For ceremonies?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes for ceremonies. Coming of age ceremonies.

JL: So the mescal that was made from the cactus was more of a Mexican alcohol?

Harlyn Geronimo:  Yes that was more of a Mexican alcohol.

 JL; Is there a problem with alcohol and drugs on the reservation?

Harlyn Geronimo: Well, I think there is. I've been off the council for quite a while. I would say about six years. I used to read the reports but now I don't have access to it.

JL:  Right.

Harlyn Geronimo: I cant really say at this time. I would say there is a problem but I can't provide any figures.

JL: How about the peyote from the flower, was that used for religious ceremonies?

Harlyn Geronimo:  Yes it was used for religious purposes. It was not just taken really like a cigarette. Even back then they didn't smoke that on a regular basis, because it's a very spiritual part of the ceremony. The cigarette itself. Just like presently you hear a lot of people are smoking Marlboro or Camel. Back then it wasn't like that. This was very sacred.

JL: Is this the same sacred cigarette with the four herbs in it?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes it's the same one.

JL: At the time, 150 years ago, were there many cowboys that lived around that area?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, they were actually migrating here into the south west at the time. Just like big cattle ranches were being established, cattle drives at the same time the Apaches were fighting the system itself. But there was Wyatt Erp and the OK Corral and it was already established, these towns.

JL: How did the Apaches and the cowboys get along with each other?

Harlyn Geronimo: Well, today or back them?

JL: Back then.

Harlyn Geronimo: Well the tribes were very dominant and they were warriors and they didn't bow to anybody. They always fought for their homeland and their tribes and their ancestral lands.  They just kept on continually fighting until the final surrender.

 

PART 8

JL; I want to ask you about what happened to Geronimo in the end?

Harlyn Geronimo: They were coming back from I guess you could say attacking one of the villages down there in Mexico. You see they do this to intimidate the people, down there because of the land that was taken from them. They go down there and and raid the villages. One time on the way back, he fell off his horse and fell into the creek and according to the people that were there, they indicated that he had a heart attack.

JL: So it was an accident then?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes it was.

 JL: There was a treaty that was made with the Mexicans. In the book it says that the Mexicans gave Geronimo mescal and many of the Apaches got drunk and after they got drink the Mexicans killed a lot of them. At that time, did any of the Apaches have a problem with drinking mescal?

Harlyn Geronimo: You know a lot of this liquor was new to them and if you compare it to the Apache brew, it was stronger; the the mescal from what they were used to drinking. So when they started consuming this drink, a lot of them would get intoxicated right away. And it affected their ability to reason,  They just can't comprehend after that. So this was one way of getting the Apaches drunk. Which occurred throughout the time they were fighting the Mexicans.

One village will call a peace conference with them and then you go to another village and they would attack them.

 JL: It also says in the book that your great grandfather received eight wounds, he was shot six times, incurred a knife wound and also got hit over the head with the but of a rifle.

Harlyn Geronimo: Like I said, there  was more. A lot more than what was described there because he was constantly on the war path with the Mexican army and the US Cavalry.

JL: Did he heal himself or did someone help him?

Harlyn Geronimo: Well within the party that goes out on a raiding party, there is a person within the band that is very knowledgeable with healing wounds with the herbal medicine. And he's taken along on these trips so they are prepared.  It's like a person that's attached to small militarily unit that specializes in medicine. It's similar to that, but the medicine they use is the herbal, which is the tradition learned at a very young age so there was male or female medicine person that deals in this area, that area part of the band; the raiding party.

JL; When they started having problems with the white settlers, it says in the book that some trouble arose and then your great grand father took to the warpath. It doesn't really say what the trouble was that arose. Do you know what happened?

Harlyn Geronimo: What really upset a lot of these tribes in the south west at that time was that they were actually migrating into the homelands and started killing innocent Apaches.  That's where a lot of these battles, raiding started. They were in the mountains, at peace within their own tribes, but all of a sudden you've got the white settlers migrating to their territorial area and then they attacked two small parties and later on it goes to where bigger parties are getting involved in it. Its really trespassing, I guess you could say. A lot of the white people at that time didn't know the land belonged to the Apaches, even though they weren't around. But they put up their homes and whatever it is they put up there and pretty soon some of these tribes would be traveling through and they would kill them for no reason at all. It's like the way they look at it, it's no man's land. The white people are the ones that are settled there, the whole scenario changes and they believe it belongs to them now.

JL: It also says in the book that when the Apaches were wronged, it was never explained to the government, but when the government was wronged, it was always reported, like the deeds of what the Apache did.

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes that's correct, a lot of the incidences, the minor incidences that occurred by maybe trespassing close to the area where they were camped. The military forts or places like that or maybe even areas that were claimed by the military and the government. When they accidentally shoot an Apache, they turn around and say they are trespassing, even though they were approaching the people for a conference or a peace treaty or something like that. They will make this scenario of an attack where the Apaches were at fault. There too getting in the media to have more of the bigger people up in Washington to look down on these Indians to say that they are trouble makers and are in the way of progress. That's really what the bottom line is.

JL: When your great grandfather made a treaty with the white government, at the time, they were attacked in their tent.  For the Apache people, when they give their word, how important is it to keep their word?

Harlyn Geronimo: It's very important because the honor system is so strict within the Apache tradition that they have to abide by what they say. But here again, just like several times before, the military actually twisted the truth just to get back at the Apache on some minor incidence and then say they violated the terms of the treaty. But here in the south west at that time you have about close to maybe a hundred small groups that were traveling back and forth between Mexico to the United States and maybe one or two of them will run into other military establishments and tell them it was they that attacked the forts.

In another part of the country maybe 100 or 300 miles away, where the treaty was established, they blame the person that actually signed it and say that these are your people that actually violated it. But here again about 4 or 5 tribes at a close  location where the incidence occurred plus the bands that are also involved in it. We make the treaty with one Apache tribe, but there is actually 3 or 4 other Apache tribes that they get overlooked.  So what should have been done at that time is to call all the Apache tribes in one location and make a treaty with them, but they didn't do that.

They weren't familiar with the tribe also.

JL: This question is about Mangus Colorados. After they killed him, it says in the book that they cut his head off and then they weighed his brain and afterwards took his skull to the Smithsonian Institute for exhibition in Washington DC. Do you know if his skull is still at the Smithsonian Institute today or what happened to it?

Harlyn Geronimo: According to the people that I know who are related to Mangus, the concern is still there and that the skull is still there. But now the older people are actually gone and now the younger people are coming up. They are concerned but there is problems like money. It takes money to get a lawyer and an anthropologist and archeologist and it takes a lot and that's what's keeping a lot of these people from actually getting involved in these issues.

JL: So these people are Mangus Colorado's great grandchildren?

 Harlyn Geronimo: Yes. Because they are related to me. There's I believe 4 daughters that are direct descendants, great grand daughters. They are very young and they don't really know how to deal with the issue itself.

JL: But do they suspect that it's at the Smithsonian Institute?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes.

JL: . Do you know if his relatives ever contacted the Smithsonian institute and asked for them back.

Harlyn Geronimo: I don't think anybody did, but I heard his skull was up there.

 JL: So is it true that General Howard was a man that Geronimo liked? Do you believe that if the other generals had been like General Howard, there would have been peace with the white settlers and the Apaches?

Harlyn Geronimo: I believe that if the other generals were more concerned with the status of the Apaches at that time, treating them right, providing them rations they deserved, in most case they were given beef that was in very poor conditions. It had a lot of insects on it an the grain itself had a lot of insects. It wasn't very clean and the generals didn't care what they gave to the Apaches that were close to the fort at the time for signing the treaties. But Howard was a different person. If you actually read about it or heard about this through our oral history, the outcome could have been a lot different. There were close to 5000, around that number of people were killed because of the war that just continued to the final surrender. The last 3 or four years. So it was not really understood.  The livelihoods of the Apaches was not really taken seriously. I remember here again they were after the land and they didn't care who got in the way as long as they terminated them.

You know it's similar to the genocide you read about in Europe, during World War Two.

JL: With the holocaust?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes the holocaust when Hitler was involved in all the killings that were there. It's similar to that, but this was kept very secretive, very quiet.

JL: How many Apaches do you think were killed in total?

Harlyn Geronimo: I would say maybe since the signing of the Treaty of Guadalupe, when the Mexican government turned over the land to the United States government that was 1842, but I believe around 20,000 Apache were killed then to the conclusion of the war of 1886.

JL: So what percentage was this of total of Apache people around at that time?

Harlyn Geronimo:  I would say 85 percent.

 JL: It says in the book that Geronimo engineered a battle at Casa Grande and was then attacked by the Indian scouts that were working for the government and all the women and children were captured and because of it your great grand father was almost executed by Nache.

Harlyn Geronimo: You have to understand that this war party that he was overseeing at that time was from his own tribe. Naiche just joined his party, guess you could say the band.  A lot of this information like that part is incorrect, to make it exciting or to make him look bad. A lot of  those information are surfacing now, but in a situation like that he was the one that was in charge .  That's because it was his band, his tribe.  For instance, there's a lot of it which is made up just to make him look bad.

JL: Do you think that when Geronimo signed the treaty with General Crook, that it was a trick from the beginning as a way to capture and imprison him?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes it was. You know, general crook was determined to bring him in and General Crook was the type that was also aware of the situation in Washington, the way it was set up.  The only way to end the war, was by ending the war and giving them small pieces of land. They felt that this was something of a big accomplishment, but at the same time, just like I said before they were after a large area of land mass here in the south west and there were other issues that they actually invoked but some of them are not recorded. When they signed the treaties, they didn't actually stick to those treaties.

 

PART 9.  

 

JL : Did your great grandmother Kate talk to you about the time when Geronino was in prison in Vermont Alabama, and was there any history about what that was like?

Harlyn Geronimo. I was there when she was telling me about this.  I had my mother there, she was always taking me there, my late mother and what I didn't really pick up, we went over it again back in 91 to about 94, before she passed away.  I spent a good maybe six months out of the year going over all this information that was given to us at that time. She talked about that imprisonment in Florida in St. Augustine and also down close to Pensacola, but this is how I had all the information up to now that I received since I was a little boy and we went over it again. That was good because I didn't know how valuable this information was at that time, but getting into my late 40s and now I started to realize how important this information is to the history of this area.

JL; What about the time he was in prison in Alabama for five years?

Harlyn Geronimo  Yes they treated him very badly when he was in prison there. Not only him, but his warriors which he was in prison with. They nearly starved several times. They were treated very badly sometimes for no reason, for being locked up in a stockade or similar to a  stockade with only maybe corn to eat and water and also at the same time they were exposed to the tropical disease which they weren't used to because they were from the high mountains and the desert regions. At that time, a lot of them were dying from tuberculosis and other illnesses that they contracted like diarrhea, even colds, flu and small pox.

JL: Smallpox, in the prisons?

Harlyn Geronimo  Yes, because it was new to them.  They never really being isolated from the rest of the population and then your brought into a populated area with all these new contagious diseases exposed to you.  At the same time they were nearly starving, but there was hard labor also. For a good two years they didn't have a break, constantly seven days a week. Not only the men folks were treated pretty badly but also the women folks. Little babies were taken away and were given as gifts to the populated non Indians in that area where they were actually taking them.  When some of these kids were actually forced to attend school, in way over in Carlisle, they were also dying of other diseases.

JL: The kids were?

Harlyn Geronimo  Yes, the kids; with like influenza, Tuberculosis; the major contagious disease they were dying off was TB at that time.

JL: How were the kids treated in the schools?

Harlyn Geronimo: They were very very strict with them. They were not allowed to speak their language and if they did they would be locked up and spanked with those thick horse whips and they had their hair cut.

JL: Their hair cut?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, right away they cut their hair. The boys objected, but they were in a sort of prison style environment at that time. Constantly whipped with a strap, not only that but also with a board.

JL: How old were the children?

Harlyn Geronimo: Some of them were at least 5 to all the way to 18.

JL: Did a lot of these children die then?

Harlyn Geronimo:  Yes a lot of them died.

JL: Do you know what kind of percentage died?

Harlyn Geronimo: I would say about maybe a third of them exposed to a lot of contagious diseases at that time were killing them. Not only that but they had really bad drinking water. Also even dying of starvation.

JL: Starvation too?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes. But a lot of this wasn't recorded. Kept out of a lot of the books written at that time. The government was really closely scrutinizing anything that was written about these schools at that time.

JL: The schools for the children, were they schools with the churches?

Harlyn Geronimo: There were some churches there that were helping them by giving them clothes and shoes, even food but, you know how strict the military was at that time. 

JL: Yes.

Harlyn Geronimo: They were in stockades and fortified installations. There were guards there with rifles. They had to have permission to even walk across the fort. They were very strict with them. It was like a concentration camp.

JL: It sounds like a concentration camp.

JL: Have you heard of any stories in the residential schools where they put the sick kids with TB with the healthy kids in order to get them sick?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes they did that when they were in confinement.  They exposed the person that was sick to everybody. that was done with, how would you say, without the tribal people knowing about the illnesses. The doctors knew about it, the military doctors.

JL: They did?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes.

JL: And they did this on purpose?

Harlyn Geronimo:  Yes, it's a way of reducing the population, by any means, even though they were in confinement, just like when they were taken the chirichauas you know.  My great grandfathers warriors ladies and woman to Florida, they just put them in the box cars and locked it up. They didn't try to stop for restroom or give them any fresh water, they just gave them bits of raw corn and they would use the restroom inside . It was very filthy. People were sick by the time they got there. People were dying when they opened the box cars. What they were doing was just a way of killing the people.

JL; How many people would be in these box cars?

Harlyn Geronimo:  They just packed them in.

JL: It sounds very much like what they did to the Jewish people in Nazi Germany?

Harlyn Geronimo:  Yes they did the same thing?

JL: How long was the trip in the box cars to get to Florida. It must have been a couple of days?

Harlyn Geronimo:  Well, they had to stop on the way. I heard it was about two weeks.

JL: Two weeks?

Harlyn Geronimo:  Yes.

JL: Oh man. That's terrible.

Harlyn Geronimo: Approximately, because on the way there were some problems with the decisions to continue or where to take them. That was brought up several times too.

JL :So many of them must have died then?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes a lot of them died.

JL: Have you heard about any experiments being done on theses kids or of Apaches being kidnapped by the US government in the 60s and and experimented on with drugs etc.?

Harlyn Geronimo:  Well, some of the medications were given to them that were supposedly rejected by other communities or other companies and they just consumed it, but they didn't really keep a record of that.

I don't know what was the meaning behind it.

JL: What year was this?

Harlyn Geronimo:  That was in the 50s.

JL: And it was with medication?

Harlyn Geronimo:  Yes medication.

JL: Do you remember whatt this medication was for?

Harlyn Geronimo:  I just heard that they were given medication that companies rejected.

 JL: Who was the warrior called "Fun" that killed himself?

Harlyn Geronimo:  That was one of Geronimo's nephews. He was one of the very intelligent mind warriors that would ride next to his positions, one of his lieutenants that he trusted. He was very intelligent in military tactics. He didn't run in combat itself, he was of the superior warriors that he had.

JL: Is it true that he killed himself and his wife or did something else happen to him?

Harlyn Geronimo:  Yes a lot of this was covered up. The military at that time was trying to eliminate the individuals that had superior skills in combat. You know in this warfare itself and once they released them. They would have problems with them. So this is the way of covering this up saying that it was an accident or saying that he killed himself, but a lot of  the deaths at that time were covered up.

JL; So they killed him then, the prison guards?

Harlyn Geronimo:  Yes.

JL: And his wife?

Harlyn Geronimo:  Yes because I was told that if you knew too much and you were going to continue fighting once they released you, they thought that's what was going to happen again. So they had to get rid of the main individuals that were very knowledgeable in warfare. So that's what the military resorted to at that time.

JL: Did a lot of your great grandfather's warriors die in prisons?

Harlyn Geronimo:  Yes a lot of them died in prisons, unexpectedly for unknown reasons. I was told that some times you said they would transport them to another location and that was the last time anyone had seen them alive. They don't know what happened to them. The military are the ones that took them. In several cases this occurred.

JL; So they murdered them?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes. This is information that was kept out of the public articles at that time and the military was very strict about what goes out to the media. Even the book itself which he supposedly wrote, the interpreter, they were actually watching them closely and they were going over the notes.

JL: The military was?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes.

JL: As they were speaking?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, and a  lot of information that was recorded was twisted facts and misinterpreted also, because they wanted to make themselves look good. That these people were actually causing problems that were the trouble makers that need to be removed. But the whole scenario really changed from the public view. They twisted the facts so they were the bad people. Even at the turn of the century it was still like that. Even the movie makers pictured  the red man as the bad person, but it just continued to suppress this race so they couldn't get their land back. The majority of the land that was taken from them. In order for them to succeed with their propaganda they had to resort to this kind of information. They just kept on going into the 50s and finally the perspective changed once this information started to surface.

JL; That happened around the 50s then when the true information started to come out?

Harlyn Geronimo:  Yes. several books were written here about it and it changed here in the 50s and 60s and continued up till now.

Sometimes you see a movie about Apaches and it has completely changed from where they used to be the bad guys.

JL: Right. Have you seen any recent movies about the Apaches that are very truthful?

Harlyn Geronimo: Well the one that came out about my great grandfather, I would say about 6 years ago. Geronimo The American legend.  That's pretty accurate. I wish they could have gotten into more detailed format. They didn't really touch on a lot of the issues. Then there is another one that TNT made. That's kind of better.

JL: That's what's his name, Ted Tuner's Television station. What year did TNT make this one?

Harlyn Geronimo: About 97

JL: I think I saw that one.

Harlyn Geronimo: If you can look at both of them.  Gene Hackman was General Miles I think. And Wes Studi played Geronimo. There's several big stars in it. What's his name that cowboy, Duval.

JL; Robert Duval.

 

Wes Studi as Geronimo

 

Harlyn Geronimo: Historically, that's pretty close to being accurate, but I wish  they could have consulted with some of us over here when they made this other production, what do you call it, for the discovery channel. Its called Lozen.

JL: They did a film on Lozen?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, the woman warrior. She was one of the woman warriors with my great grandfather at the time at the final surrender five or ten years after Victorio was killed. We did a documentary about Lozen, I was playing my great grandfather in that.

JL; You were, when was this?

Harlyn Geronimo: That was two years ago, 2004.

JL: Well I have to get that one too then.

Harlyn Geronimo:  There's also another one, its called Apache wars for the History Channel. That came out last year on History Channel.

JL: That's a good channel.

Harlyn Geronimo:  Yes it is. Right now I'm working on another documentary for discovery called First Nation and then last I also did Into The West. I was playing a Cheyenne chief. That was just getting into the movies.

JL: Into The West. Wasn't that, what's his name, Steven Spielberg.

Harlyn Geronimo: Steven Spielberg?

JL: Yeah, is that him?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes.

JL: He was the director?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, he was the director.

JL: Yes, he's good at doing that sort of thing. I have a question about Lieutenant Purington who stole Geronimo's money and put it into the Apache fund. Do you know what happened to that money?

Harlyn Geronimo: Well the money itself disappeared, because they were actually dipping their hands into that. A lot of the money disappeared. When the Indians went in their accounts, sometimes they would find it depleted. It was looked after by the military.

JL: So somebody stole it then?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes.

JL: This is the money he made from working in the prison?

Harlyn Geronimo: yes, several times that occurred and when he died in 1909. I heard that he had about 50 thousand in the bank.  After he died, my grandmother passed away about 6 or 7 years later and there were only two sons that were there. They weren't really aware of the money and land that he had in Oklahoma.  After she died there was another son, a step son. A half brother, his name was Robert Cross Eyes. He changed his name when he turned 15. I believe in 1949 he went over to Oklahoma and told the authorities there that he was Geronimo's grandson, but he wasn't. When she, Kate, came back to Mescalero, she married another man here. His name was Cross Eyes.  His son was born and when he realized his sister's father was Geronimo, he changed his name to Geronimo. At the age of 15 he changed his name to Geronimo and got into that account and the land itself.

Two other sons, original sons to my grandmother never received anything. So it's all corruption.

JL: Yes. Sounds like it.

Harlyn Geronimo: There's a family here in Mescalero that are actually from the Cross-Eye family, but they are still using the name Geronimo. So you have to be careful who you talk with. They will tell you they are from that family, but originally the grandfather had actually changed his name to Geronimo.

JL: So most people aren't aware of this then?

Harlyn Geronimo:  They were not aware of it because there was an article about 6 years ago about the daughter and son that changed his name of that man Robert Cross-Eyes, who changed it to Robert Geronimo back a round 1920. And now they appeared in National Geographic, saying that they are direct descendants, which is false. I'm trying to get a DNA going . I've been talking to different people about that. This is fraudulent.

 JL: Yes, it's not very good that these people would be doing that. Making those kind of claims.

Harlyn Geronimo:The bad thing about it is that they are still receiving royalties when they found out there was oil wells on that land and now they are receiving that money.   

JL: Oh man.

Harlyn Geronimo: The original individuals are not receiving nothing.

JL: That's crazy. I don't know how people can do that kind of thing.

Harlyn Geronimo: The government just let it happen so it's bad.

JL: Do you ever run into the Robert Cross Eye family these days? Are they still around?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, they are still here. The thing about it is the old man, the son of Robert Sr., he is still using Geronimo and he was in the National Geographic in 1997and his pictures were in there, saying that he is a descendant.  But the thing about it is, these are all false, he is lying to the public. Just like the military was claiming they were Vietnam veterans and then I think the US Attorney got involved and some of them went to jail for that.  But this person is doing the same thing. He is lying to the public and no one ever investigated him and he still goes up there sometimes, but I think now he is afraid.

JL: Is he still collecting money off that land in Oklahoma with the oil wells?

Harlyn Geronimo: I'm pretty sure he is.

JL: What about this book, the biography by SM Barrett, did your family get any money or royalties for selling all those books?

Harlyn Geronimo: Well according to my great grandmother, he was supposed to be entitled to the royalties, but he never got it.

JL: He didn't get any of it?

Harlyn Geronimo: None of it.

JL: What about your family, did you get royalties.

Harlyn Geronimo: No, we never got it.

JL: Nothing?

Harlyn Geronimo: Nothing, because there was a promise made.  That's why he took on the task for this autobiography. That was one of the stipulations, but apparently they didn't give him anything. The pictures that were taken of him also, all the pictures, he had rights to them and when I was growing up, I seen some of the original pictures, but the family divided the pictures up. I was too small and didn't know they had any value or not at that time, but I as told he had all the rights to the photos that were taken of him. Any picture you see out there in the public that was all his copyright.

 JL: There was a Salt Lake in the Gila Mountains where they used to get salt. Is that lake still there?

Harlyn Geronimo: It's still there.  That's where they used to get their salt. There is a mountain next to it called Baldy. That's one of the sacred mountains to the Chirichaua Apaches. In that region they used to go up there and pray when they didn't have any snow and bad weather. They were constantly up there praying. That's the Chirichaua practice is like that. When they get up, they pray throughout the day and at night even before they go to bed. It's just part of their daily lives.

JL: In the book, it also talks about sacred names that were used in anything pertaining to war and that war is a religious matter. So they had sacred names.

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, they had sacred names. Once they found the warrior society, once they congregate and go into a long journey into warfare, everything changes. Even the warriors, the language, it completely changes.

JL:  I read a few different things about how Geronimo got his name; was it because when he was attacking the Spanish Mexicans they would call out St.Jerome help us?

Harlyn Geronimio:  That's incorrect.  It didn't come from the Mexicans.  It actually came from the US Cavalry.  There was a Greek God that they were referring to at that time, the pronunciation was similar to that, but not very pronounced, the way it is now. The military were the ones that gave him that name. A military officer.

JL:  What kind of Greek God was it? 

Harlyn Geronimio:  It's a long name. I can get it for you.

JL:  So then that's incorrect, because I read this in a lot of places and they said it was the Mexican St. Jerome.

Harlyn Geronimio:  Well, you know how people are.  They want to come to a quick conclusion, you know and apply something that is very distinct and publish it and get on with the book.

 JL: How do you pronounce Geronimo's Indian name. Is it Goyathlay ?

Harlyn Geronimo: That's pronounced incorrectly. Have you ever killed a white tailed buck.

JL: No.

Harlyn Geronimo: When you kill a white tailed buck, when you skin it, there are two straps that come from the neck to close to the tail,  on both sides there is muscle. That's about the fist size. I guess you could say your whole arm. That's really a tender part of the white tailed deer and its muscles. His real name is Lyuli. That's what it means.

JL: So his real name doesn't mean one who yawns, right?

Harlyn Geronimo: No.

JL: How did that come about?

Harlyn Geronimo:  Just like you see these authors, they pretend to know everything when they are writing and a lot of misinformation is printed. They don't know what they are actually writing about. They just want to complete their book.

JL: How would you translate his real name in a couple of words?

Harlyn Geronimo: I guess you could say, if you understand the white tailed buck, that's where he gets his strength, the back. If you see a mature white tailed buck in the forest and you walk down into the meadow and walk up to it. It's going to give you about a split second for you to shoot at it.  If you are not ready in a second, he's gone. He is very stealth you know, intelligent. You have to be sort of a woodsmen expert in tracking and hunting to kill a white tailed buck.

JL. So then it's the strength, power, speed, stealth and intelligence that give Geronimo his real name?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes.

JL: Ok, I understand.

Harlyn Geronimo:  The white tail is fast and he actually hides. I've seen them hiding behind a tree with my binoculars. One time I went hunting with my sons and the white tail was actually hiding from me. I walked right by it.

JL; Do Apaches believe in life after death?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, we believe in life after death. That's always been the information we received. Just like for instance when a grandfather or a grandmother dies, we believe that he is going up to another spirit world; where there is no violence, where they live in harmony with the Creator.  It's a peaceful setting.  It's very holy, but once they leave we are not supposed to mention their names because of the journey that they are making. We stop mentioning their names because it's sort of like pulling back on them.

JL: How long is this for that you can't mention their names?

Harlyn Geronimo: For about a year. Even after that we try not to mention them. You see, if we keep calling them and calling them, they are going to come back. That's what we are told and they will take you or one of the people close to you back to the spirit world.

JL: Really?

Harlyn Geronimo: That's why for instance the desecration of his grave, it keeps surfacing and one of these days he's going to get upset at the person that took the skull and femora; even at the direct descendents of that family. He will come back and take one of them with him.

JL: Yes, I see that.

Harlyn Geronimo: There's a big controversy right now in the media and that will happen. Either by other means, by people getting sick, or even a car accident, things like that.

JL: Right. I totally believe in things like that and know it happens. What about reincarnation?

Harlyn Geronimo: We were told that if you were a medicine man, after a medicine man dies he will reincarnate into a bear. A black bear.

JL: Right. Yes.

Harlyn Geronimo: That's why when we are hunting or out in the forest, we try not to call the bear itself in Apache or in English because we are going to get him upset. Because we want to leave him alone to live peacefully out there. To live a peaceful existence. When we speak to them in Apache, they can under stand us.

JL: They can?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes because one time I  went down to the zoo, about thirty miles from here, and I don't know for what reason I started talking to one of the bears in Apache that was sitting in the water and he got upset and threw a handful of water on me. Laughs.

JL; Really?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, from the cage.

JL: What did you say to upset him?

Harlyn Geronimo: I told him that I'm sorry and it wasn't me that locked him up and if it was my choice, he would be out in the forest free. But in the mean time, be strong and take a cold bath and I don't know what upset him but he threw water at me.  Laughter.

Another time I was in Albuquerque, I went to a bigger zoo and there were three polar bears sitting on the side. I had my grandson with me and we went up close to them along the cage and I noticed they started to become alert. And after a while, they jumped in the water and started swimming around. Their sprits could feel our presence.

JL: Did Geronimo turn to Christianity towards the end of his life?

Harlyn Geronimo: You have to distinguish what Christianity is. In our tradition, God is God, no matter what race you are. If he doesn't go to church that doesn't mean he's an atheist, but they generally pray about four times a day. We call him Usen, that's God in a Apache.

I wish the person that was writing that book did more research into this area. I also go to a Roman Catholic church and much of our religion is identical. God is God. When we pray we can actually create things, you can say it's superstition or magic or things like that. Like making it rain or snow, stopping the hurricanes, but after really thinking and observing those things, about the reason why we are so close to mother nature, the Creator God, it's because we still have our language and our tradition. Our rituals that were given to us over 3,000 years ago.

 

 PART 10

JL: What about the Apache language, do the young people still speak the language?

Harlyn Geronimo:  Yes they do, but we are gradually losing it.

JL: Is there a school that teaches the language on the reservation?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes we have an elementary, middle and high school here on the reservation. They teach it.

JL : How about the culture and the history, that's all a part of it too?

Harlyn Geronimo:  Yes that's all part of it.

 JL: When you said that you could heal viruses, what kind of virus did you mean?

Harlyn Geronimo:  I'm talking about a strep throat, severe strep throat.

JL: Are there any other kinds of viruses that you have worked with?

Harlyn Geronimo: Well, we have herbal medicine that will I guess you could say would cure cancer.

JL: Have you ever worked with anyone that has hepatitis or AIDS, or any of these kinds of diseases?

Harlyn Geronimo:  No nothing like that.  We have never been approached with anything like that. Well we know over a thousand different herbal medicines that our great grandmothers passed down to us. And we use only about 300 hundred of them on a daily basis. We treat people that ask for help in this area and up to now we haven't been approached about the two illnesses that you mentioned.

JL: When people ask you to help them, do they usually come to your home or do you have to go to their home?

Harlyn Geronimo: Well, if its convenient for them to come over to our house, to have a blessing and prayer session in Apache, the rituals that goes with it, then the medicine itself.  If its quiet at their place where we won't be interrupted, we usually take care of it over at their place.

JL: And if the person is very sick and they can't travel?

Harlyn Geronimo: In some situations they actually call us from the hospital. And we usually take them the herbal medicine in a small plastic container and give it them.  If they are in the ICU or the hospital itself, we take it over there.

JL: How do American doctors handle that when you go there with the medicine?

Harlyn Geronimo: Well, when we bless the person, we tell them what we are doing and usually we have no problem. But the herbal medicine itself,  we try to keep that confidential.

 JL: You started telling me one time about Apache prophecy that had something to do with the land. Some kind of change? 

Harlyn Geronimo: There is old lava close by here, about 30 miles and there is gypsum, white sands that is located a good 40 or 50 miles from it and he mentioned that once these two touch, its going to take 30, 40 or even more years. Once they touch together there's going to be a big war in this area.

JL: So from now, you think its going to take 30 years for that to happen?

Harlyn Geronimo: I don't know how long it's going to take for the white sands to touch.  It's moving about a foot a year, or two feet, I forgot. It's gradually moving. It's pure white sand.

JL: How many miles is it? How many meters kilometers is it from the lava?

Harlyn Geronimo: I would say a good 40 miles?

JL: Did he have any other prophecies that he wanted people to know about at some point?

Harlyn Geronimo: Well he mentioned there is going to be a big climate change around this area because of the disruption to the environment here in the South West and on this continent.  Now if you think about it, it is all this population taking place.

JL: And he saw this a hundred years ago?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes he did and he mentioned that if it continues changing, they are going to destroy themselves.

JL: Did he mention anything about the water running out?

Harlyn Geronimo: That also because of the migration.  He had seen it back then and also talked about it. Continued migration would drastically affect the environment here. 

 JL: What is the situation now with the weather? Has the weather heated up a lot these past few years in New Mexico? Have you noticed a difference?

Harlyn Geronimo:  Yes, I could tell that during the summer months it's very hot now and the climate seems to be sort of erratic. Like from the fall into winter it changes all of a sudden.  Then maybe a week later, it's hot. It continues doing that up to about November. Then all of a sudden in December the snow came in and the wind wasn't that strong back when I remember that.  But now the wind is very strong; like yesterday it was 60 miles per hour.

JL: Has it been colder?

Harlyn Geronimo:  Yes you know all of sudden it drops to maybe 5 or 6 below.

 JL: What are your thoughts on the global environment?

Harlyn Geronimo:  It's always been my concern because that was the area we were always kept informed about.  We were told not to destroy the environment, not to destroy the forest, not to pollute the water and not to harvest too much; like game, turkey, elk or deer.  Just take what you need, but now if you look at the situation here, a lot of people are just killing it left and right.  Like the mil deer or the elk, we've got people out there who are just destroying what we were informed not to take for granted. Now if you look at the forest, it's like how it used to be a few years ago. Got a lot of over-grazing and timbers are now cut down, to where some places it's big open bare spots.

JL: Who is doing this?

Harlyn Geronimo: The government.  They are just letting people come in and log the trees.  Now what they are doing, they are doing the thinning, they are cutting all the trees that are less than 16 inches in diameter. All the older trees are being cut down. It's been in practice several years but they don't know what benefits the environment. We got  a plan here that's never been tested.

JL: Are most of these logging companies from New Mexico or different places?

Harlyn Geronimo: They come from different places.

JL: Mostly in the US?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes.  It's like that up north too, around Oregon and California.

JL:  What about other environmental problems with wild life and birds?

Harlyn Geronimo:  Yes, we got more development here in the south west where the developers are getting into prime land and building homes, stores and roads.  They are getting into areas where wild life habitats used to live. But now they are being pushed off the land. Not really anyplace left for them to go anymore.

JL: Is this land close by where you are?

Harlyn Geronimo:  It's all around. 

JL: So who is responsible for this?

Harlyn Geronimo:  The realtors.

JL:  This property, who does it belong to? Does it belong to the state?

Harlyn Geronimo:  Yes it's on the state and the federal government land; some areas that have been exchanged for public land.

JL: How did you first get involved in activism?

Harlyn Geronimo:    Well it started way back in the early 80s when I got on the tribal council. I wasn't to comfortable with the setting of the meetings because the man that was president of the tribe became too powerful. The people that were actually elected to represent the people were just there. They were sort of like a rubber stamp for all the documents without questioning.

In order for me to change the format, that was in the council, I used the media to speak out on different issues, that I was opposed to. From there I started confronting bigger issues as years went by. For instance, the one big issue was not disclosing the financial report to the tribe, to the people. I made that a big issue and from there other issues start coming about like for instance like at the end of the decade there. And before that too, like the issue of my great grandfather's remains. It was one of the big topics at that time. The Scull and Bones got into the grave site a hundred years ago and other Apache tribes were talking about it and they confronted us and we started getting into the media and then other issues came in like nuclear waste. it just continued for a good year. Then other issues within the tribe came in and I started feeling comfortable using the media.  That's where I started getting involved with the bigger issues and now I've got to the point where I can confront any major issue using the media to my advantage.

JL: And its been very helpful for you?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, it hass been very helpful where people from across the country have actually voiced their opinions in support of my projects.

JL:  What did you mean when you said that the tribes should never let their guard down, in New Mexico magazine? Is that because of the history or recent history?

Harlyn Geronimo: Well, both you know. In the past and recently too because of the treatment the tribe has received from the government in dealings with treaties, regarding the land, the mineral rights and water. Everything they had actually signed regarding these issues. They have been short changed. They have been cheated. Just look at the land that was stolen after they broke the treaties. Now just like with the mineral rights. They have been receiving several million. I think it's 2.5 billion.

JL: 2..5. billion?  Who's getting this?

Harlyn Geronimo: The state on mineral rights.

JL: New Mexico?

Harlyn Geronimo: New Mexico . I have to look it up again but they are getting a lot from the minerals that have been extracted.

JL: On your land?

Harlyn Geronimo: The land that the Apaches used to own . Minerals copper, lead, nickel. gold, iron, gas and oil. That's what has been extracted from the land that we used to own.  Now the state is getting paid for all of that

JL: So the state is getting paid all this money?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes and now look at us. All the bad dealings, we are not receiving any.

JL:  And this had been going on for how long?

Harlyn Geronimo: Maybe 150 years. A lot of the younger generation that are on the council are not aware of this. I was on the council since 1981 and I was told our history tradition, so I'm very knowledgeable in this area. Just like my great grandmother Kate used to talk to me about these issues with my late mother, and you think about it now. Everything was stolen from us. Even the water rights. We went to court with the state. Maybe about 18 years ago they lost the case. Maybe 20 years ago on the water right case.

JL: You lost all the rights for that?

Harlyn Geronimo: A good majority of it. We are getting a small percentage of the water now. You know not only water but the land itself. The Apaches used to own the majority of the 3 states here in the South East and the northern parts of Mexico.

JL: New Mexico, Nevada?

Harlyn Geronimo: Arizona, New Mexico and Texas and northern parts of Mexico.  The whole Sierra Madre.

JL: Another thing you said earlier was how important it is to keep your language. Would you say that's changed in the last generation.  Would you say the language is being lost?

Harlyn Geronimo: I would say the last 16 years, a lot of older people have crossed over and taken their language with them. The young kids are not really learning the language, because up until now they finally took it serious where they hired the Apache speaking people to teach the Apache language in schools and their community complex in Mescalero. But I think it might be too late because a lot of it has been lost.

JL: Has any of the language been recorded?

Harlyn Geronimo: No it's never been recorded.  There's a book that's been written. Its' similar to a dictionary but it's not a dictionary. Only 50 percent of the language has been recorded on paper.

JL: What do you think of white people that have Native American medicine?  Do you think that could be possible?

Harlyn Geronimo: No.  A lot of this medicine that we use, the Apache people use, it has a spiritual side to it and the only way you can learn that is if you speak Apache. And that you are raised as an Apache here because the spiritual part will not work unless you are Apache.

JL: Would you have to be born on the land then?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes and know all the rituals too, to do the blessing because these medicines they can actually cure cancer, other major illness. You might know the medicine, but the part that's missing is the spiritual part. You can do anything you want, but the majority of the time it will not cure what is actually involved.

JL: What if someone learned your language, could that make it work?

Harlyn Geronimo:  No, you actually have to be born an Apache. What's very dangerous about this from the native perspective is the medicine itself will actually look as if the person is playing with it. And then if they try and learn the spiritual part, it will actually do more harm to them.

JL: To them or to the person they are trying to heal?

Harlyn Geronimo: To them.  To the person that is claming they know how to use it. It cannot be transferred. I'm also referring to the herbal medicine, the curing part.

JL: Can a native person teach a white person medicine?

Harlyn Geronimo: Well from our tradition, from our culture, we can not teach anybody because its against tradition. It's ok if we teach another Apache, but somebody from another race, it can't be done because it's against our traditions?

JL: Do you know if that's the same with most other traditions?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, I think it's similar. They can watch, but in most cases, in our tradition, when we are doing the blessing, giving the person the medicine, the herbal medicine, it's usually done in private. We don't talk about the actual person.

JL: So then the reason why you don't want people to know about the medicine is because you don't want people to exploit it, make money on it from other white people?

Harlyn Geronimo: You see for instance, if a person comes to me, who is very sick, I know there are people out there that charge 500 dollars, a thousand dollars, but in most cases it won't work because with our Apache people, we usually ask for 4 basic things and its nothing like other cultures or races where they ask for a lot of money. In our tradition, it doesn't work like that. Just like this man from El Paso was very sick and he asked if I could help him for a small minimal fee. In our tradition its not like a big hospital fee like you have to pay.

JL: What about secret prophecy? Would a native American person give it to a white person?

Harlyn Geronimo:  No. They cannot.

JL: And the reason for this?

Harlyn Geronimo:  It's very private.

 JL: Would you say that the majority of people that live out there on the reservations are very poor?

Harlyn Geronimo: Well, you know I think with the casinos and the other areas, the cattle operations that we have on the reservations, I don't think anybody should be in a state of where they need special needs from the welfare department. There's jobs, and they are good paying jobs. Some of them are 30, 40 thousand a year. And if there are people that are in the need, I think it's because they are not looking for employment. It's their own fault that they are not getting any income because with these enterprises, there's enough employment here.

JL: On the reservation?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes on the reservation and also you know with the wild life we have. We got mill deer ,white tail deer, a lot of rocky mountain elk. We've got thousands of them on the reservation. We've got some here in my back yard. We've got wild turkey. Some mountain goats. I don't see where anyone has to be starving with the type of environment we have here. It's in the ponderosa. We've got a lot of springs ponds. Maybe two or three good size creeks; that's going off the reservation. There's good fishing. You can't starve here. You've got everything you want here. So I don't see in this time and age where you could be starving. If you're starving, it's because of your disability. You probably can't walk, have a deformity or something with your arms. It's like New York, in the middle of New York, there's the welfare agency, but are they going to provide the food that's needed that same day.

But here we've got a different environment, we've got wild life, there's even wild cattle up here to be harvested; cows and bulls. They're wild up here in the mountains. So you have to be disabled to starve here and no communications, but I would  say about 90 percent of the households have TVs, internet, telephone etc. Even if you are disabled, you can call the tribal council and ask them or tell them you need food.  To have somebody kill an elk for you and process it and bring it to your house. Some of these bull elks weigh a good close to two thousand pounds. So you can't starve.

JL: So that's enough food for the whole winter?

Harlyn Geronimo: The whole year. They're as big as a horse.

 JL: I read somewhere that some medicine people misuse their medicine and turn it into a black kind of medicine. Have you ever heard of Apache doing this?

Harlyn Geronimo: No, not Apache medicine because it's very strict when it's given to you or when you pick it up. According to tradition when you are taught at an early age, if you use this for the wrong purpose it can actually kill you. It's not made to do evil things to people or to get monetary value for the service that you do. It doesn't work like that. Not the Apache medicine. It can destroy you if you do that. I don't know if like other cultures, like the voodoo, I don't know how it's used. Black magic, the black book, something like that. The Ouija boards, those are some thing's I'm not familiar with . So it's so powerful that it can destroy you if you use it incorrectly. It can make it rain, snow in the dry season, it can even stop the hurricane, tornadoes.  This is so powerful that if you use it the wrong way, it can actually take your life.

JL: So it's not to play with then?

Harlyn Geronimo: Its not to play with. You have to be very serious

 JL: In the New Mexico Magazine article, when they asked you what kind of future you see for your people, you said you see a positive future. What do you see happening in the future for your people?

Harlyn Geronimo: What I was referring to in this article is the opposite side of the progress people are making here. The casino is really providing a lot of income for the tribe. And with the income they're getting, if they use it right and plan for the future, basically I was touching on the educational part. That's where we need to really focus; on the younger generation to get a good education so that they can provide for their family. Not only that but work to improve the tribe itself in leadership positions where they can continue having a good solid education. And protect the tribal sovereignty so that their treaty rights are honored. Also make sure the government is enforcing the trust responsibility according to the treaty rights. You know these areas have to be studied thoroughly by well educated individuals from the tribe. And I see a positive side from the money that's generated  by these enterprises. Not only that but the ski area is also another good enterprise that's providing jobs and also funds for the tribal scholarships. So it looks very promising and positive. Not that we got maybe a hundred and fifty college students. Maybe more at this time, out of maybe three thousand tribal enrolled members.

JL; Do most of the people that visit the ski area and the casino, come from New  Mexico or from other states close by?

Harlyn Geronimo: The majority of them come from Mexico. Also a lot of Texans come up there to ski. Not only that but they come to the casino. I would say about 60 percent come from Mexico and the other 40 from Texas.

JL: What about New Mexico, where you are?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes they come, but not as much as the Mexican people do.

JL: Why do you think that is?

Harlyn Geronimo:  I think it's because they don't have skiing in Mexico or Texas. If you are from here, you can go anytime. You can wait next week or during the good winter months.

JL:  What about the gambling? Do you get a lot of visitors to the casinos from New Mexico?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, a lot of the gamblers are from the smaller towns here in the South West.

JL: Nevada?

Harlyn Geronimo: A lot of them are from the smaller towns and communities, maybe thirty, forty miles surrounding the reservations. We even get some from El Paso. But if you think of it, it's cheaper to come up here than to go to Vegas. You don't have to pay for your airline or gas. You just drive twenty or thirty miles.

JL: Are there hotels on the casino?

Harlyn Geronimo: It's a big resort and casino. Two hundred and eighty rooms I believe it is. Then about four or five miles. Then there's Ruidoso and you've got Holiday Inn, you've got Motel Six, Best Western, there's a lot of hotels in Ruidoso.

JL: How far are you from Ruidoso?

Harlyn Geronimo: From Ruidoso, I would say about four miles to the reservation lines. We are adjacent to Ruidoso. Some of them go to Wallmart, its eight miles.

JL: How far are you from the casino?

Harlyn Geronimo: I would say about two miles. But for myself I don't go there. I might go there to the buffet, get a good meal, get a good dinner, but I never play the slot machines.

JL: Is that because its against your religion or because you just don't like it?

Harlyn Geronimo: I never did like it. I never did like gambling.

 

THE END

 

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